model yachting Australia - including d'12metre radio yacht forums

Admin · Veteran Member

RE: Nautic12 / A2 Reconciliation - Part 2

Henry · Senior Member

Thank you Maverick. Nobody has contacted me in phone or Email since the offer was made, including you . so We have withdrawn the offer.

Maverick · Guru

May I ask what those points of agreement might be?

And I'm not interested in any secret stuff. It's either out in the public and open, or it just continues a non-disclosure course typically adopted by the Nautic12 folks over the years, and as far as I am concerned, that is what has done the most harm.

Gees, it's only a boat!!!! There are some really life threatening issues out there, and we are all concerned about what exactly???

Exactly what is now preventing the A2'ers and the N12'ers sailing happily together? Exactly what serious life threatening issues are stopping people from having some fun just because, whether by accident or design, they chose two different styles of boats??

It's rapidly getting to the stage where, in the absence of something positive, from somebody, anybody, some specific topics in the Nautic12 forums' will be closed to further comment.

Henry · Senior Member

No Maverick , If they want to sail then we will talk with them first. And they won't sail until that process is adhere to.

We want them to adhere to a few things FIRST.

Maverick · Guru

Henry wrote:
Maverick, I'm starting to worry about you. I'm talking about recon... your talking about your N12 keel? And then after I tell you some of our problems to do with Recon... you don't care what our problems are! K

Nautic 12 keel weight is covered in Nautic 12 Rating Rules under 'corrector weights'.

Henry. Sometimes I wonder if we are reading the same post. I made absolutely no reference to my, or my N12's keel, so I'm not sure where your comment came from.

With regard to your making mention of the problems you have had with recon..., surely you must be aware that it is precisely because of those lack of communication issues, that I have changed my stance. And please rest assured, I do care what the issues standing in the way of reconciliation are.

And if you have doubts about my wanting reconciliation, why don't you go the the News page of my website where I have made mention of your upcoming State regatta.

I don't know what more you want me to do at this stage. Chopping off an arm or a leg is absolutely not on, if I can help it. That is just too far to go. smile

And as far as not discussing things go, it is only the old A2 vs Nautic12 issues that I am done discussing. I am more than happy to discuss anything positive regarding the reconciliation of the A2/Nautic12 groups.

Corrector weights, - no problems with either class as far as I am aware.

So, it should be all systems go. And I might add, that even though it sorta pains me, but only in the short term, if there are any A2 sailors out there, please, if I might stick my neck out here, take the opportunity if at all possible, afforded by Mr Crewes to sail with the Nautic12's.

What better way to get everyone together.

Henry · Senior Member

NOTICE.

If there is an owner of a Aust 11 out there who wants to sail with Nautic 12s on a friendly basis. Please contact the Secretary at 02 9558 5675 OR the email on the Australian Nautic 12 web page.

www.rcyachts.net/nautic12/

Henry · Senior Member

I can take it that you think discussing this is irrelevant. I can't get the other guy Mr T to talk about it as well. So I guess thats where any RECON stops. I want you to remember it was your choice to stop discussing it and Mr T made the same choice.

Henry

Henry · Senior Member

Maverick, I'm starting to worry about you. I'm talking about recon... your talking about your N12 keel? And then after I tell you some of our problems to do with Recon... you don't care what our problems are! K

Nautic 12 keel weight is covered in Nautic 12 Rating Rules under 'corrector weights'.

www.rcyachts.net/nautic12/ for the class rating rules.

Henry

-- Edited by Henry at 09:31, 2007-11-27

Maverick · Guru

The A2 Class rules state a minimum weight of 11.35 kg fully rigged and ready to sail. They also state a maximum of 11.9Kg under the same criteria.

The boats are evenly matched as both my N12's and my A2 fall within the range of the A2 regs. The 11.35 minimum of the A2 is below the minimum specified for the Nautic12 of 11.5Kg. But that is not even the difference of the lightest battery pack I have come across.

And it also means that I need to add additional ballast to one of my N12's if it is to meet the Nautic12 regulations, because currrently it comes in under their minimum weight.

So allowance most definitely needs to be made, even if boats come out of the same mould, as my second N12 is right on the minimum weight without additional ballast.

So there you go. Two boats out of exactly the same mould, one meets the minimum weight requirements and the other doesn't.

But that's not what this topic is about. It's about reconciliation. I believe it's about getting owners of both boats sailing together in a friendly atmosphere, for the ultimate benefit of radio yachting.

I am no longer interested in discussing technical differences between the boats as it is now largely irrelevant, and I don't see what constructive purpose it serves to go over old ground.

All I want to see is, as stated earlier, both groups sailng together and having fun. Together.

Henry · Senior Member

And the answer to the question is.................................................? Somebody?? Don't give me the run around the paddock about battery weight , for there are only a few ounzes difference in them.

You see Maverick , this is a constant problem, I kid you not. These supposed one designs should have a weight Max and Min like the Nautic 12. Are we to battle this with every boat that the OTHERS produce? If we are Maverick, it will turn out too time consuming and how do we go if we find some over our weight? Hand them the drill , to drill it out?

This is where the serious talk should have taken place! This is why we chose to go to our own NAUTIC 12 Rating rules in the very early days.

I don't want to say the other rules are ... not up to scratch but let me say I think they leave a lot to be desired in a one- design rule.

If we have more than one moulder or people moulding these boats, then the problems can increase.

I hope I have been able to explain some of the problems here. If they don't want to talk about it all , then I accept that. It certainly saves us quite a lot of work.

Henry

-- Edited by Henry at 20:55, 2007-11-26

-- Edited by Henry at 21:06, 2007-11-26

Maverick · Guru

Ouch...... that pen hurt! cry

All up weight of an A2? Depends entirely on equipment fitted, particularly batteries, but bearing in mind individual boat, weight differences, it would not be unreasonable to reckon on an A2 coming in towards the minimum weight end of the Nautic12 as per the N12's published rules.

Henry · Senior Member

Mavrick , if you start making discussions out of my "Reconciliations", I'm going to have to get my red pen out and stick it somewhere in your, your .... person.

Fair crack of the Hooves Mav. What I really need out of one of your readers is the all-up weight of an A2?

And I don't want to hear .... 1 litre.

Henry

Maverick · Guru

Henry wrote:
Well Mav, I hate to antagonize you but A2 is not a class and NEVER has been!Its a type.Where as the NAUTIC 12 is a class, for the boats are registed within an Association.

Hmmmm, I'm not antagonised, but I'm not sure about the definition you state as to what constitutes a class. Will have to think on that one a bit, but I do take your point.

This would actually be a good topic for general discussion I reckon.

Henry · Senior Member

Well Mav, I hate to antagonize you but A2 is not a class and NEVER has been!Its a type.Where as the NAUTIC 12 is a class, for the boats are registed within an Association.

"And the public will decide if there will be more than one type boat". Give us a break , Mav. The Nautics are off and running. The other lot are still walking round scratching there B***.

The fact is that the public has already made up their minds and are voting with their feet. Oh well its Saturday and it is off sailing the NAUTICS at Scarborough Park (as usual). Visitors are welcome.

Come and visit us at www.rcyachts.net/nautic12/

Maverick · Guru

Henry wrote:

Maverick, I must pick you up on that previous post about A2 being a one design. There are quite a few moulds out there. Up to date I have only see two of these hulls alike and I have seen quite a few supposed A2s. With Nautic 12s they can be proven One design out of one mould. You see that the more mould sources the bigger the problems for a one design class. For some reason people get a good design and then want to start making changes to it. This is why I ponder having A2s in the Association, for the questions start coming of what variety of A2 are we getting???

I am only aware of two A2 Class Australia II moulds in existence. One set of moulds is in NSW and the other in the ACT. And my understanding is, is that they are identical. And that is still a better situation than existed with say, the EC12's for example, where there were many more than just two moulds. Yet they were still recognised as a one design class, and quite successfully it seems, for many years, despite sometimes significant differences between them.

And I personally think that variations on a theme are acceptable. Not only acceptable, but to be encouraged. Everybody wants their own boat to be unique, whether it's meant to be a one design or not.

But as an aside Henry, I would be really interested to hear how the supposed A2's have differed from each other. This is a genuine interest, for I am not aware of this situation.

And I've been caught in the trap again, haven't I, because this particular discussion has nothing to do with the A2/Nautic12 reconciliation, or am I mistaken? Perhaps this could be discussed further in General Discusion, or the A2, or even the Nautic12 forums'.

Maverick · Guru

Henry wrote:

Mav , I don't think that A2 and our lot are going to get together. on track.

Nothing is going to happen with that other boat if they won't talk.

Henry, it is precisely because of that attitude, that I have modified my personal stance on the acceptance of the Nautic12.

I will never condone, cannot condone, any infringement of personal ownership, or copyright issues. It is simply not fair to the people who have put in the effort, whether by personal, or financial, or some other means, to acquire the rights to a particular work.

But I believe what matters now, is to get all the party's involved together and to come to an amicable agreement. The radio yachting sport is simply not big enough to accomodate serious product ownership issues and dissention within the ranks, so to speak.

A legal challenge has not been mounted by either party, despite the sometimes heated discussions that have occurred. It is in this environment, where no legal challenge has been mounted regarding copyright ownership, and yet, where and still, one party will not take part in discussions in an attempt to resolve issues, that has been the reason for the modification of my original stance.

Whilst I absolutely respect the right of ownership, if something is in dispute, it needs to be resolved, one way or the other. If resolution is not possible, one way or the other, then I can't really see a problem with the affected public in general, deciding on a common outcome. After all, history is full of such events.

And was that not how the common law came about?

So, I have rambled on at length stating my opinion regarding this issue. It stands, in the face of reasonable argument, to be corrected, but in the absence of any other argument, I vote that the A2 Class and the Nautic12 Class be recognised as equal classes with legitimate rights to exist. And then, let the public decide what they want to do. Let the public be the ultimate arbitors of this issue.

What say you, public....... anyone ........., anyone at all.............?

Henry · Senior Member

Me being a "commissioned Agent" , Well no Mav not that even, for I received no commission, that is the contentous issue!

Henry · Senior Member

Maverick, I must pick you up on that previous post about A2 being a one design. There are quite a few moulds out there. Up to date I have only see two of these hulls alike and I have seen quite a few supposed A2s. With Nautic 12s they can be proven One design out of one mould. You see that the more mould sources the bigger the problems for a one design class. For some reason people get a good design and then want to start making changes to it. This is why I ponder having A2s in the Association, for the questions start coming of what variety of A2 are we getting???

Henry · Senior Member

Mav , I don't think that A2 and our lot are going to get together. You know what I was saying about communications, well this applies in this situation, this is like a little cameo of what is happening in the general hobby.

There are these peoplein this hobby that just go out and stir up trouble and nothing else. Now some of our readers(for we have too few posters) that is all they do in life is seek to make trouble for no other reason than to see an uproar.

At least with me I seek some solutions to the sport.

someone told me about A2 the other day with the "after word" of not to say anything. He didn't say what was going to achieve by giving me this information?? But here is an example of what is happening in this part of R/C yachting,,,, NOTHING. He said he had some interest in A2 but there it hangs. Nothing.

Model yachting it not built on nothing. a clear plan by yacht clubs must be at hand so all member know the direction the club is heading.

Now with Nautic 12s we know we are building a class, all our members know we are BUILDING the class , so as an Association we are not doing something that is "rocket science". Each of the members can do something! When some one new comes along , I don't have to do the selling of the class the others do it. To further the Association's aims.

In the later times , quite a lot of people thought I was "the person" with pushing Nautic 12s! I do push it but the point I'm making is, that a lot of other people push it as well. And while I'm an easy mark (cause I'm out there) most of the time your aim at the wrong person for it is the Association you're talking about.

As I said on many occasions , I don't have a financial interest in Nautic 12s apart from being an owner of a boat. So if you pick an argument with me about N12, it won't reflect on the class.

So , what I want to achieve with Nautic 12s and the other boat is personal to me. If the other boat's owners don't want anything , thats fine but we are not going to loose sleep over it. Our plan for Nautics are still on track. Nothing is going to happen with that other boat if they won't talk.

The thing about model yachts is this need of the members of a club to be in the club, this is the reason they are there , to be accepted in the group . The members of the public see all these (In this case Old Buggers) having a really good time and want to do the same thing. Frankly Maverick , some Model yacht clubs are more like mortuaries than clubs on sailing days. And when they find a bunch of people having a good time they want to get in on the action or join the FRAY. Show me a club "going down the drain" , I'll show you a club that is not FUN to sail at.

-- Edited by Henry at 09:38, 2007-11-23

Maverick · Guru

Henry wrote:
MAV, I noticed your comment on your ADMIN page that you got all these people on your page in OCTOBER but they didn't say a word. The miserly sods. I think you were right , just gutless parasites. They want to do the reading while you do the thinking and writing. Never mind, you can't complain about the postings can you?

I think you to be commended for having the guts , I just got a little problem with your Legalities?

Off topic. Final warning. Future off topic posts will be deleted outright.

Maverick · Guru

Henry wrote:
I will tell you this but you probably already know this is that this Nautic12 is a far superior boat than the other one. For all the little nicetties in design have been done , like that newer rudder and the great deck and the winch on top and watertight hatch and the rudder set up that comes as standard with all boats and and a workable one design rating rule..............

As much as I would like to, I cannot agree that the Nautic12 is a far superior boat than the other one.

Of the little niceties, I absolutely agree that the watertight hatch on the deck of the Nautic12 is a whole lot more convenient than that on the A2, but then, the hatch on the A2 is watertight as well. So I guess it comes down to personal preference. I absolutely love the extra deck detail on the A2.

With regard to winches, I have the Guyatt winch mounted on the deck of my A2. They sail the same, with the same set of sails. And the A2 is a one design, just as the Nautic12 is.

There is room for both boats in our sport.

Maverick · Guru

Henry wrote:
Gee Mav , I take it as a personal achievement that I have been "expunged" by you . You just got rid of 50% of your posters, well done. Should I put on my T shirt "I was Expunged by Maverick".

Please do not let me or my opinions influence your course of action.

But alas, once again, I think we have drifted off the topic. The topic is as far as I can tell, about reconciliation between the A2 folks and the Nautic12 folks.

Henry, if you want to talk about something else, please start a new thread. I am not going to move your messages into appropriate areas any more.

Any off topic messages will be deleted. I'm sorry. But I just don't have the time to keep moving them around, despite their quality and contribution.

Maverick · Guru

Henry wrote:
Maverick , You seem to have the propensity to mix up the facts and in your last post are some classic examples:... disappointed that the Manufacturers can't get together". I am not a manufacturer!

You are I believe just a commissioned agent. When I refer to manufacturer's. I am talking about the people who do, have done, the actual work, and who have vested interests, for whatever reason, in their activities. Be those interests altruistic, or financial, or for some other reason, I don't care.

The only thing that matters to me personally is that the people who put the effort in, should be recognised, and appropriately acknowledged, and that as a result, this sport portrays a clean feel about it, and that people can take pride in participating in it.

Henry · Senior Member

MAV, I noticed your comment on your ADMIN page that you got all these people on your page in OCTOBER but they didn't say a word. The miserly sods. I think you were right , just gutless parasites. They want to do the reading while you do the thinking and writing. Never mind, you can't complain about the postings can you?

I think you to be commended for having the guts , I just got a little problem with your Legalities?

Henry · Senior Member

I will tell you this but you probably already know this is that this Nautic12 is a far superior boat than the other one. For all the little nicetties in design have been done , like that newer rudder and the great deck and the winch on top and watertight hatch and the rudder set up that comes as standard with all boats and and a workable one design rating rule.............. I could go on but Hell Mav you would say its getting boring. But I say it is still the standard Boat, this Nautic 12.

Check em out at www.rcyachts.net/nautic12/

Henry · Senior Member

Gee Mav , I take it as a personal achievement that I have been "expunged" by you . You just got rid of 50% of your posters, well done. Should I put on my T shirt "I was Expunged by Maverick".

My posts got moved around so much , even I could not keep track of them.

I hear there are some great changes coming about in that "other Class". But I guess you know this?

Henry · Senior Member

Maverick , You seem to have the propensity to mix up the facts and in your last post are some classic examples:... disappointed that the Manufacturers can't get together". I am not a manufacturer!

You hold court where you are judge, jury and executioner and now you say it is only LOOSE LEGAL INTERPRETATIONS. Aren't you man enough to stand by your words? Is this a bit like "Loose lips sinks ships" kinda thing.

I told you the "facts", these are checkable. Had you done your work properly,you would have checked before you put that stuff on a post. With you it is all due care and NO RESPONSIBILITYy. Maverick , when do put your responsibility first in getting to the facts. And after finding the facts don't you say so, instead of you going off again and say "well I guess the R/C yachting public will decide" another LOOSE LEGAL INTERPRETATION , Perhaps.

This moving POSTS around is having the desire effect. Believe me.

Thank you for your thoughts on the little Aussie 2. Our concept on having Mini Mariners Aussie 2 in our club is going to work out just fine, Thanks again.

www.rcyachts.net/nautic12/ including Mini Mariners AUSSIE 2

Maverick · Guru

Heavens Henry,

And damn, I thought we had seen the last of you!

As far as anyone asking me for advise, and I presume you actually meant to use the word advice here, I have never professed to offer anyone legal advice. (note the spelling please). And I would absolutely not be in a position to offer same if it was requested.

My loose legal interpretations are simply a result of having been exposed in business over many years and in a most varied array of situations, to the legal system.

The above comments made by me, are as irrelevant to this topic, as your post. See how easy it is to be dragged down to a common lower denominator level.

As to your next point, which unbelievably is actually related to the topic under discussion, I agree with you. One can only make so many reasonable requests at dialogue. I have already accepted your point by the way, and as a result of your comments, relayed by you to me, and by God, I hope they are true, that you have done what you can to start a diologue with the A2 folks. They have rejected your overtures.

So then it seems to me, that if the folks behind the Nautic12 and the A2 Class are not prepared to have a dialogue, then I put it to you that the issue now be placed in the open public arena.

Let the radio yachting public be the arbiters. Let them decide the issue! Mind you, that will only be of value if they are prepared to do that publicly.

Once they indicate their intentions, should any of them have the courage to do so, then I think it would be a most inept manufacturer that would ignore them. At his/her peril I might suggest. But we need to know what people think!!!!

I do not know what more I can add here, apart from adding that I am disappointed that the manufacturers have not been able to get together to resolve their differences.

-- Edited by Maverick at 22:15, 2007-11-11

Henry · Senior Member

Only a fool would ask you for legal advise.

The Latest News .... Hello out there in dream on land. the word is your mate said no to someone elses try to get him to talk. This is the third time and as the Yanks say "its three strikes and your out .. at the old ball game".

The balance of this post has been moved in toto to the General Discussion forum under the sub-forum of New Developments as it was irrelevant here.

-- Edited by Admin at 21:25, 2007-11-11

Maverick · Guru

Where do we go from here?

OK. We now know that the A2 Class Australia II and the Nautic12 have a common ancestry, the genesis of which was altruistic good intent for the greater benefit of the radio yachting community. It didnt quite work out that way it seems, but nevertheless, initial intentions seem to have been honourable.

But that is all water under the bridge now, and it seems to me that a more forward looking attitude needs to be encouraged. One of co-operation.

I could be wrong here, but unless there is some possibly ulterior motive at play here, maybe financial, maybe something else, I cannot see why, for the greater benefit of the radio yachting community, that the A2 and the Nautic12 folks cannot come to some agreement.

In recent times it seems that the Nautic12 folks, Australian connection at least, have approached the A2 folks with a view to opening discussions. Apparently the A2 folks have just replied with a simple and straight out NO. That cannot be good for this sport. And from my own point of view is probably one of the most damaging things that could have happened.

As a result of this lack of willingness to at least enter into discussions, and there does not seem to be any change of attitude on the horizon, I dont believe the end users, the buyers of either of these boats should be penalised, especially the Nautic12 buyers, who bought these boats in good faith.

Accordingly, I am modifying my approach to this conflict. I am taking this action irrespective of what anybody else wants to do, but at least I am making my position publicly known. I am not hiding behind any anonymity.

My approach now is that should someone turn up at your club, or group, be it formally or informally organised, with an A2 Class Australia II, or a Nautic12, or an EC12, make them all welcome. I know thats what Ill be doing. If the powers behind the scenes cannot agree, stiff!

And if as a result of this general acceptance enough boats turn up that will enable a class to be registered, pursuant to ARYA requirements, be it the A2, or the Nautic12, or the EC12, then that approach, is I believe, one to be encouraged.

The only impediment I can see to this approach is that if it got to the point of a legal challenge and if in a court of law it was determined that the Nautic12 was indeed an infringement of copyright and therefore an illegal creation, my hope would be that the court would take into account the innocent intentions behind the unintentional infringement of copyright and award no penalty, especially related to Nautic12 hulls #22 or earlier.

Edited by Admin to remove extranious lines only. No other changes have been made.

-- Edited by Admin at 21:39, 2007-11-11