model yachting Australia - including d'12metre radio yacht forums

Maverick · Guru

RE: Australian EC12 Rating Rules

Henry · Senior Member

Well Mav, I have moved on . I said to myself this morning that I was not going to let this bugger me. This is digging in the toes time and how.

After 8 intensive phone calls I managed to track down the bottle neck of this problem. (And let me just go to the side here for a moment and say I am not going to aportion blame here.)

The whole thing with this is all about people who are new to the job of running an Association ... Yep this is the Probs. You see Mav, they got to the stage where they didn't know how to move on and sorta just stuck there. No, We can laugh at it and our mates involved can have a nervous laugh but this is where they were at and didn't know how to get out of it. Things were suppose to happen at the AGM (in Melbourne) and didn't, for whatever reason and it sorta all went down domino style bigtime. Right now they are trying to do it Un-officially Official and it is not working as we all know.

I am prepared to help out , I don't know what I can do but , hey try me?

They have got a new Co-ordinator, he should make his presents known. I'll give it a couple of weeks to do it himself and if he doesn't do it I'll name him. The balls in his court. I have already told him I will give my full support (even though I have not actually got a EC12).

Now I would expect EVERYONE to get out there and help also , even if you have not got an EC12. It is that important. Time to front up, shipmates

Henry

Maverick · Guru

Well Henry, I too have been thinking since I read your last three posts.

What is scary is that I was mostly agreeing with your comments. But I was also thinking about the following question.

How could there have arisen a situation that has now become so desperate that possible alternatives to the ARYA might be being considered, even if only in frustration. But nevertheless, there are alternatives that you mention in the first two of your posts, no matter how far fetched any ideas along those lines might initially appear to be.

And then there is the last of your three posts. And again, you seem to be exhibiting the frustration I know I am feeling and that surely, others must be feeling as well. I cannot even comprehend anyone new trying to get into the EC12 in Australia, especially if they want a brand new boat.

Personally, if I was going to get a new EC12 hull, I would get one of the New Zealand boats. I wouldn't care if it could not be registered here, as there are no rules anyway. How on earth could a New Zealand boat, or one from the USA for that matter be deemed illegal when there are no rules? The situation really is disgraceful and if anything was acting to the detriment of this sport, this EC12 rules fiasco would be the epitome of it. The folks from the USA and New Zealand say they are happy to sail in international competition with EC12's that can be legally registered in their home country. But at this stage no-one can legally register a boat in Australia because there are no rules.

Will the ARYA go down in history as the first national radio yachting body to be responsible for the demise of a class through a reluctance to issue rules, that everybody is waiting on? And I am not saying here anything that is not already felt by many in the community. Sure I could keep quiet and sweep my comments, that I know are shared by others, under the carpet, but what would that achieve?

Henry, you seem to have a good group of folks you sail with and you are happy with your Nautic12's so all I would say then is to have a great and enjoyable time with them. An EC12 certainly cannot be recommended to anyone these days, more's the pity. They are truly beautiful boats that can provide many hours of sailing challenges and fun. But maybe, in Australia at least, they have reached their use-by date, though I hope not.

Henry · Senior Member

Well after thinking about this for a good hour or so I have come to the conclusion that if there is nobody younger in this organization who wants to do anything for the EC!2s why should I want to do anything. Just let it die.

Long live Nautic 12s

Henry · Senior Member

Well Mav , Maybe it is time for an independant 12 metre Association, for all 12 metres like you have been spruiking about all these years??????????? It could not be worse than what the 12 metres are doing at the present. An independant organization , will get the BASICS done for the class which includes basic rules, rating certs. These have not been provided for many years from the people who say it is their job to do it.

Look , I'm starting to get an old person. Things were this crook back in the days when Vane sailing was practiced in Australia and the only way we got anything out of the National body was to start a new Radio Association . I don't really want this , but how do we improve the existing situation?? The people in the National Body are not listening.

Henry

Henry · Senior Member

NO MAV , You missed the point. ARTHUR is not looking for the rules, I am! He fobbed the job to me.

I can tell you Mav ... you and all those who care to listen HHHHHHHHHHHEEEELLLPPPPPPPPP.

The "powers that be are not looking". Do we have to embarrass them into it. I don't want to embarrass anyone, so how do we bring these needs to their attention?

Henry

Maverick · Guru

Well Henry,

All I can say is that I have been going to the ARYA site on a daily basis, hoping to see at last, the publication of the EC12 rules that were "imminent" months ago. All to no avail.

Seems like your friend Arthur has the same problems that I have experienced over the last four years, and that he will just have to join the ranks of the frustrated, disgruntled, unhappy EC12 sailors and potential sailors around this country. Actually, I would hazard a guess and suggest that any potential's that might have existed would have either gone on to other boats or departed radio yachting completely.

I would not be surprised to hear that the words ARYA in a sentence in combination with the words EC12 Rules would be becoming a distasteful and most disagreeable collection of irrelevant words.

The above comments are one's I would rather not have made, but it is very very hard to remain, or even be, positive in this existing Australian EC12 environment.

I extend good wishes to Arthur in his quest. And a quest it will be. Similar in proportions, I think, to the one for the search for the Holy Grail. cry

Henry · Senior Member

Well Here it is the 12th of March 08. There is not a scarrick of a EC12 rating rules for any to see.

Now I can get it out and post it on these pages, for all to see but I want the National body to put it on their web page. I want to tell you all a little story of what has happened to me in the last couple of weeks, to do with EC12s.

About three weks ago an old mate turned up at Scarborough Park, Ancient Mariners sailing water on the Wednesday. I hadn't seen Arthur for just over 24 years till he put his head in to say G'day. Last time I saw Arthur, I had just put new set of sails on his new EC12 (KA31).

Now he is back , wants to sail Wednesdays and Saturdays Etc. Arthur want his boats revived from 1984 to 2008 versions.

I told him to go to the EC12 club but he said he wanted to sail for fun and he reckons he want to be with the Ancient Mariners. ( no bloody taste).

So I reckon we have him and his EC12. And (with the part I don't like) he wants them measured. So the need for EC12 rules now becomes urgent. And also a need for a rating Forms as well?

Now I know I'm not going to get these either. Arthur is proving to be a pain.

HELP.... someone.......

Maverick · Guru

Well, I have to agree with you once again.

Look Henry, if you continue to make good points, to continue to make good suggestions, to be logical, to continue to do the right thing, you are going to flummox me.

Have you gone off your medication, or have you started taking it again? biggrin

Jes' joshin'.

Whatever, the result is damn good, a credit to you, and hopefully to the ultimate benefit of this sport in helping to achieve an outcome, as you suggested.

Henry · Senior Member

Exactly... And You Mav have done that . My comments was not (I repeat NOT) directed to you but as a general reminder to everyone who reads these pages. Now some are just Passer Bys and some are not. What we need to achieve is an outcome... Like when you did your set of rules (and let me say here , I thought it was really good of you to enter into the spirit of it all Maverick). This outcome is still needed. So we need to not only say so but to contact our local ARYA rep and tell him of our concerns. We need to go further and not just say it on this forum. Perhaps I did not make my self clear enough?

Maverick · Guru

In the Nautic12 - An Interesting Happening Forum, Henry made a comment, or maybe it was a plea that it was easier to be a critic than a helper. My response was as follows but I think it worth repeating here.

"Henry, I totally agree with your comment about it it being easier to be a critic than a helper.

That's why I asked in my post of the 7th Feb, nearly two weeks ago, in the EC12 Forum the following questions. And that's why I drafted myself a set of EC12 rules what now must be more than 12 months ago, to see what was involved, and made them available for reading.

"Does anyone, anyone at all, know what the impediments are to, or what is stopping, the ARYA from publishing a set of Australian EC12 Rating Rules? What is the reason for the holdup or delay?

But most important of all, what can we, the radio yachting community, do to assist the ARYA to get a set of rules out there? How can we help?"

In case it was not understood, I for one, was offering help in any way that I could."

And I am sure that there are plenty of other people out there willing to do what they can to help resolve this situation.

Maverick · Guru

Ken Dobbie wrote:
If ARYA is at fault, it is for letting those who were against a standard AUS/NZL rule dictate the terms.

Australian EC12 owners have let a golden opportunity slip by. For a class that had been stagnating since the late 1980's the rewakening of interest over the past several years should have been a sign to go forward but instead we have self interest and procrastination dominating.

With all due repect to all at the ARYA, it doesn't seem fair that the owners are carrying the can for what should be ARYA leadership.

From my observations, nobody makes a move within this sport without the ARYA's OK. As you cannot please all the people all the time, might I also again respectfully suggest that knowing this, the ARYA should show leadership and do what they think is right without blaming others. "Others" are powerless to issue the rules are they not? And from the comments in recent previous posts above, it would seem that the ARYA have been seemingly less than receptive to the comments, or input, from interested parties. Sadly, and I stand to be corrected here, but I think the ARYA have only themselves to blame for this absurd situation for not using the authority they so obviously have, to get the rules issued in what they think is in the best interests of the sport.

On a positive note, a suggestion that might be made if it was allowed, would be to forget about apportioning blame to anybody, and to just concentrate on getting the rules out and the class on it's way.

The Kiwi's and the Aussie's have got National Championships coming up very shortly. Hopefully this matter will be well settled before then and everybody can get down to what this sport should be about. Having fun! And lots of it!

ec12nz · Veteran Member

Ken - thanks for your response.

I also tried as "an interested party" to assist with information and comments that would progress the Aussie EC12 group forward like yourself.

Whilst I will not criticise the governing body I will say that I was told by email that as I am not an ARYA member my comments had no bearing and I was not an "interested party".

Shame because I think I am - I have been involved witht he class for the last 10 years and have had many, many, many dealings with Aussies, Yanks, Poms and of course locals (kiwis) and think I have a fair and reasonable understanding of the class internationally.

No matter what - I am coming over for the Aussie Nats in May (even have a T shirt from the 1983 EC12 Aussie Nats) and I will enjoy the sailing win, loose or sink them anyway we can!!!

At the end of the event whether my so called "new" shape or an older one wins, it will be the best driver of the 12 on the days that takes home the cup.

I look forward to my visit with my kiwi built boat. If it looks like an EC12 it is - gotta love that.

Ken Dobbie · Newbie

As an "interested party" I was asked to comment on the original draft rule amendments which I did, correcting some technical errors and suggesting changes which brought the AUS proposal closer to the NZ rule. I did not get the courtesy of an acknowledgement so whether my suggestions were considered I am no wiser. I have had no further part in the process.

I repeat, a golden opportunity gone begging.

Henry · Senior Member

As far as I know there is no organization called the Australian EC12 owners? And we have only one organization that puts out rules, namely ARYA. Perhaps while your defending them you might venture an explanation, of sorts, of the process (seeing you were involved in it) so we can understand this situation , as well?

Henry · Senior Member

HUMmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm!

Ken Dobbie · Newbie

Whilst I don't wish to become involved in a debate regarding the delay in publishing the revised EC12 Class Rules I can't let the criticism of ARYA go unanswered. It is an over simplification to blame ARYA for the delay when clearly it was the owners who could not reach consensus.

If ARYA is at fault, it is for letting those who were against a standard AUS/NZL rule dictate the terms.

Australian EC12 owners have let a golden opportunity slip by. For a class that had been stagnating since the late 1980's the rewakening of interest over the past several years should have been a sign to go forward but instead we have self interest and procrastination dominating.

ec12nz · Veteran Member

Re the Aussie Rules ................... am as frustrated as all hell .. we resolved the major sticking points as far back as August last year and all that was left was to tidy it up a bit and publish it.

Still not done !!!!!!!

In the meantime if it looks like an EC12 it is.

The above was in an email to me a day or so back when I asked were the rules ready. The source - who shall be nameless - is very reliable and trustworthy witht he above news.

Henry · Senior Member

Well Mav, it appears that the person who told me has VAMOOSED to north Queensland and has got lost in the H2o. Never the less , I will Endeavour to find out what is happening!

Maverick · Guru

Henry wrote:
Well The ARYA has come up with a crediable set of EC12 rating rules (1 Jan 08). And this will sort out any or all of these problems and If I might say so , that they have made a good try at these rules. I have a copy.

Well Henry,

Here it is now, the 15th February 2008. A month and a half after your rules comment above. And yet we still have no EC12 rules!

What the hell is going on, or maybe more importantly, not going on, within the ARYA, regarding the publishing, or rather, the non-publishing of Australian EC12 rules.

The time has come, to plainly state, irrespective of the consequences, that the ARYA must now be considered an International laughing-stock regarding their charter with regard to their officially sanctioned classes, of which the EC12 is one.

They have done an admirable job in running competions, international competitions, extremely successfully, but when required to make a ruling or a decision on something outside the IOM, Marblehead, 10-Rater and A Class boats, for which international rules exist, they have come up short. Real short.

To the extent that the EC12 rules have been under review now, by my own personal experience for at least four years. They seemingly are unable to cope with anything that has not already been internationally defined. And if that is the case, then that is a disgrace, and indeed then, a poor reflection on the quality of the people involved in this sport.

Maybe it's a case of nobody caring enough about anything except the class they sail their own boats in. If that is the case, then it is entirely understandable that the future lifetime of this sport will not be a long one.

As stated earlier, I have made the above comments, irrespective of the consequences, because I believe they need to be said. If that means I get kicked out of my club, and therefore also as a financial supporter of the ARYA, then so be it. And also, if that was the case, then I would be happy to be expelled from a potentially narrow minded and short-sighted sailing community.

My original intentions were that the comments posted on these forums would be of a positive nataure, and if criticism was involved, then it would be of a constructive nature.

I would like to think my comments have been constructive, but I feel I may have fallen a bit short in achieving that objective. But given the demonstrated performance to date of the ARYA regarding EC12 rules, perhaps, just perhaps, I might be forgiven, just a smidgeon for demonstrating some signs of frustration. And I would be most surprised if I was the only person in the radio yaching world having these feelings.

And I absolutely freak out with the thought that the ARYA might one day be asked to make rules for a class of boat, a new class, that is not already internationally recognised. Frankly, I do not believe they would be up to the task, under current conditions.

I fear the sword of Damocles may have actually fallen, and it may just have fallen upon me. R.I.P. Speaker of Thoughts.

Maverick · Guru

Henry wrote:
I reeckon you could be out there polishing your boat. reading up on tune ups etc.

Sounds good to me.

Henry · Senior Member

Well Mav , I thought it was pretty obvious. Be quite , have a conversation among your selves, do something and don't ask any fool questions like:- When, How and Why.

I remember someone saying years ago that rules were only there to see how much you can cheat by.

I reeckon you could be out there polishing your boat. reading up on tune ups etc.

henry

Maverick · Guru

I believe my previous post was mostly constructive but may have been interpreted by some as being a bit heavy handed. I apologise for that approach if that is the case.

So, I will try it this way.

Does anyone, anyone at all, know what the impediments are to, or what is stopping, the ARYA from publishing a set of Australian EC12 Rating Rules? What is the reason for the holdup or delay?

But most important of all, what can we, the radio yachting community, do to assist the ARYA to get a set of rules out there? How can we help?

-- Edited by Maverick at 21:17, 2008-02-07

Maverick · Guru

Is it really too much to hope for, for some just plain old common sense and reason?

There are provisions in the rules to Grandfather all existing EC12's. So what is the problem?

And if everybody wants to use weight to determine eligibility for Australian events including National Championships, club races and championships, or anything else, just write that into the Aussie rules in the body, or as an addendum to rules that are otherwise internationally comparable.

What could be simpler?

I believe in recent years I have been very supportive of the ARYA regarding this matter, and appreciating the difficulties they were faced with, but I am finding it increasingly difficult to continue this support, given how long these EC12 rules, still with no official publication date, have been in gestation. And I am loathe to say this, but to me, the rule makers at the ARYA have created for themselves, and they cannot blame anyone else, a situation where their credibility must now surely be starting to be called into question.

Henry · Senior Member

Are yoiu touching your toes at this point Mav?

Maverick · Guru

ec12nz wrote:
maybe it is the Aussies who are dragging the chain and not recogninsing the advancements made between NZ& the US & other countries that are now becoming involved such as the UK, France & Sweden who are also adopting the 95 standard shape.

Even older boats such as the shapes currently in Oz are equal as the sail plan, the overall lenghts, waterline measurements and ahost of other things are the same.

At the end of the day a good EC12 boat is that which has a good skipper who will make any variation of EC12 go well.

Thank you gentlemen for your points of view.

Even though there may not be much performance variation between the various shapes, dare it still be hoped, especially as you mentioned EC that other, new, countries are also taking up the EC12, that when the Aussie EC12 Rules are finally released that they will take into account what is happening internationally.

And if that means adopting the '95 hull and deck shape for all new boats, then I believe it would be the epitome of short-sightedness not to recognise that as the new standard.

Why on earth would Australia want to be the only country in the six that sail the EC12's to have unique boat measurement/manufacture rules?

What justification or overriding purpose or objective could be so strong that we would be prepared to tell the rest of the world that we do not care what any of the rest of you do? We, the Aussies, are going to do our own thing, and if that means you overseas folks will not let us sail with you, then we don't care.

The eventual death of the class in Australia would then be guaranteed, but the death would not be a swift one, as the nature and sportsmanship of the sailors of EC12's is I believe such, that despite non-compatible rules, the OS boys would still let the Aussies sail with them, thereby delaying the death of the EC12 in Aus, if not the agony.

Please, please ARYA, when you release the rules, let them be internationally compatible.

Henry · Senior Member

Un fortunately EC I don't think altering the boat was an advancement, simply because both boats are still the same , it just means there different.

So are the NZEC12s going to go into the new National NZRYA. I hear they have a new committee or are you guys going to stay affiliated to whoever you were affiliated with?

Henry

ec12nz · Veteran Member

the boats are to be the same as you can get , thats what I'm applauding , for it makes the class go in one direction, that has to be a good thing and it is easier on the people who are trying to put the class together again , irrespective of what might be happening else where

ABSOLUTELY CORRECT Henry - this is the exact reason why NZ has by agreement moved to the 95 standard plug and mould. This hull, by history, is the closest to the originals hence the adoption of this hull now. ALL previous hulls are grandfathered and still legal to race under this clause in our class rules (NZ & US)

This moves those interested in the direction you say, maybe it is the Aussies who are dragging the chain and not recogninsing the advancements made between NZ& the US & other countries that are now becoming involved such as the UK, France & Sweden who are also adopting the 95 standard shape.

Even older boats such as the shapes currently in Oz are equal as the sail plan, the overall lenghts, waterline measurements and ahost of other things are the same.

At the end of the day a good EC12 boat is that which has a good skipper who will make any variation of EC12 go well.

-- Edited by ec12nz at 15:01, 2008-02-03

Henry · Senior Member

As well Mav, nobody has proved that the overseas EC12 hulls are faster , in anycase! So much so that we have had the Kiwis say that the old and new --there was not much between them! Does this mean they changed for change sake? OR it must be good because its new?

The thing is and I think the rule makers got it right is.... the boats are to be the same as you can get , thats what I'm applauding , for it makes the class go in one direction, that has to be a good thing and it is easier on the people who are trying to put the class together again , irrespective of what might be happening else where. That the class is going to be healthy in Australia. Only a couple of people (one or two) will actually race with the Americans and kiwis and why should our rules be slanted to them,,, that doesn't make sense. I reckon it is well done.

Henry

Henry · Senior Member

The decks in the rules say that the thickness of them have to be the same or thicker. This discourages ultralight decks. With these rules the class has a good chance of moving forward. A Manufacturer can now get a handle on what he is up for.

Henry

-- Edited by Henry at 10:01, 2008-02-02

Maverick · Guru

Well, from what you have said, things sound positive.

My own position has always been that the hulls and decks should only come from an ARYA approved manufacturer. If that is in the rules, then that is a good start, especially if the hulls and decks are compatible with the USA and NZ rules. God, I hope they are at least close!

Well, us less priviledged folks, will just have to wait and see what is in the rules when they are made public.

Henry, thank you for your comments.

Henry · Senior Member

Well it grabbed me for it has been simplyfied so what and readable. That has to be a plus. Meaning that you don't need a degree in Social Engineering to understand the "ins and outs" of it.

While I don't reckon it is the same as the American or the NZ rules but I can tell you who ever did them that there was a lot of common sense in them! That the rules seemed to imply that the class was a ONE DESIGN and that they didn't want people going around changing/fiddling with the boats. Some of the things that some of the other countries were doing including changing keel leads was to be frownd on and that is a good start in the right direction. I wish them well.

Maverick · Guru

Hey Henry,

Is there anything that especially stands out as a progressive move compared to the last draft of the rules published and voted on latish last year?

Maverick · Guru

Wooo Hooooo!

You are indeed priviledged having a copy of the new rules! With that privilege I would assume would go some responsibility that would be exercised benevolently.

Yes, I knew about the moulds, (moulds or molds, I never know how that should be spelled. The dictionary seems to think both spellings are appropriate), being up for sale. I was asked some time ago if I knew anybody that might be interested. Damn good price too, but I could not find anybody with the fibreglassing skills and/or time that would have been needed to make the actual boats, so I reluctantly had to pass on them. Hopefully the new owner will do something with them.

I expect an official announcement regarding the new coordinator will be coming from the ARYA shortly, but I must admit I thought it was going to be another NSW'er.

Well, at least things are happening. It will be interesting to see where things go from here.

Henry · Senior Member

Well The ARYA has come up with a crediable set of EC12 rating rules (1 Jan 08). And this will sort out any or all of these problems and If I might say so , that they have made a good try at these rules. I have a copy.

I hear the Woodward moulds have been sold to "someone" because ECSA wanted to buy an outboard motor. That Queensland has the Co-ordinators job as Col Ferguson(NSW) has retired.

Henry

Maverick · Guru

Henry wrote:
I always believed that the Gentlemans agreement was the original rules, you know, that one that we all agreed on, called the "EC12 rules".

Good classes are based on known foundations and guidelines and steadfast rules and the agreements, ARE THE RATING RULES in written form. By going out and making other rules outside these rating rules , breaks down the whole concept.

Henry, please let's get positive here. I absolutely agree that there is a need for basic rules at least, to be written down. Gentleman's agreements are I believe the spirit in which the rules are applied. That's all. It doesn't remove the need for written rating rules!

So can we all please now just continue any further posts and restrict them to the forum of this topic, matters related to Australian EC12 Rating Rules.

Henry · Senior Member

I thought crediablity was thrown out long ago! Now you tell me it is alive and well? I'll have the dead horse I think and you can rely on some "Gentleman's Agreement". Agreements have a bad habit of changing but perhaps this is a horse of a different colour? So I suppose we can change anything we like ( Like another rudder , as you mentioned and this will be Okay) as long as we do it in the Spirit of things or within a "knates Whisker" or something?

I always believed that the Gentlemans agreement was the original rules, you know, that one that we all agreed on, called the "EC12 rules". Is it in a rush to become Internationalized, perhaps?

You may think this is a worthy cause and I don't knock you for it. But I think the basis on which it is based is on a rocky foundations in regards to socalled gentleman's agreements. Good classes are based on known foundations and guidelines and steadfast rules and the agreements, ARE THE RATING RULES in written form. By going out and making other rules outside these rating rules , breaks down the whole concept. Now if you don't agree well , lets disagree?

If we want to race ONE Design, do we go to that other class?

-- Edited by Henry at 09:28, 2008-01-25

Maverick · Guru

Good questions EC. Sometimes a bit of credibility can be added to comments when the qualifications of the, in this case, poster is known. Or for that matter, ignored, whatever the case may be.

Flogging dead horses a problem? Only because taking that course of action doesn't do anything positive or constructive.

Henry · Senior Member

I'm just standing on the side lines now. I wouldn't talk about "flogging dead horses" on Maverick's forum, he might be sensitive ! ! !

ec12nz · Veteran Member

Henry - come and see the friendship and commradiere that exists in this class in May at Eden Lakes, Brisbane. I wil be there and would enjoy showing you the "gentlemanly agreement" working with actions - i.e. AUS and NZ boats competeing fairly and I would suggest very evenly. No written words are needed to enjoy the get together that is going to happen.

To keep flogging the horse that is well and dead and buried is such a neagtive thing to continue with.

May I ask please out of interest -
Do you own and sail an EC12?
What is your interest if not?
Is it it worth your drum beating if you are not an active participant of the class?

Henry · Senior Member

So Maverick, Please explain "within the spirit of the rules " . You seem to think that me asking questions is .... some how being non -constructive! If you think about it a bit more you will realize that Australia is trying to keep it as a one design. If you take the one design concept away .... then what have you ? A developement class, perhaps.

You will notice that in these "concepts" the people who do the changes are always asking the ones that didn't do them ,to change! What should be happening ... is to get the "Changers" to stop doing it. That fixes everything , straight away.

I hope that "dead Horse " theory has not got 'Maverick' written all over it ? And if this is being "mischiefous", I will sit on the sidelines, for I know the class won't go anywhere in the immediate future, too many spanners in the works!.

And Maverick , your mixing posts. The mention of what Micro Magics are a No No on this Forum as has been pointed out , previously!(remember the red pencil thingo?)

Micro Magics in this country don't exist as a class. Your mentioning "things" only disturbs future buyers to the class , if it is to be taken up in this country. Perhaps I should go on and talk about Micro Magics , seeing my thoughts on EC12s are being mis-interpreted?

Henry

is there some prize for posting 100 posts?

Henry

-- Edited by Henry at 09:58, 2008-01-24

Maverick · Guru

Well Henry, the way I see it, is that provided the basic design stays intact, do whatever you like to the boat, provided it is within the spirit of what is happening within that particular boat class. And I think fellow competitor's might be fairly quick to point out when someone has overstepped the mark. And I am sure it would be done in an amicable way, unlike my observations of correspondence with other internationaly recognised classes.

You just need to read some of the posts on what people have done to modify their boats in the Micro Magic Class, yet everyone gets on well with everyone else, and they don't seem to care about individual modifications provided it stays within the spirit of the class.

And I would suggest that the EC12'ers have already demonstrated a similar approch. This can be confirmed by reading Chris' post, just before your last two. The communication sent out from New Zealand, irrespective of when it was, I think, cements and confirms the validity of the "gentleman's agreement" that has previously been spoken about, in no uncertain terms. Both in writing and verbally.

I think that to deny that, is a case of flogging a dead horse. I don't understand what the point is Henry, of trying to create mischief where reason for none exists.

So getting back to a case of putting together a set of Australian Rating Rules, seems to me that provided they are put together within the already internationally established framework, and in the spirit of earnest but friendly competition, how can you go wrong? What is the big deal or push for an uniquely Australian set of rules that are inconsistent with everybody else.

It just doesn't make sense!!

Henry · Senior Member

Let me put it another way Maverick? If your got a EC12 that you have not changed in any way and you see a EC12 that has been altered recently. How can you have a gentleman's agreement? Did you not go into that class thinking it was a ONE DESIGN? And that ALL the boats would be alike "AS POSSIBLE". And here is one boat belonging to someone in front of you that has changed his? What sort of agreement are you going to make with this person??

Henry

Henry · Senior Member

Is this some sort of torture Maverick?

Do I have to respond to this letter about what someone wrote in 2003? The point being , we were having a nice discussion on our EC12 rules when this turns up.

OH well life is not just a bowl of cherries is it?

How , pray tell can we have a statement like "Curiously all the sail dimensions stay the same worldwide" But it goes on about there "C" is the same as there "B" but have got a smaller "C" unlike them?

Or the Sportsman angle in there regattas. Do they think all the other classes that sail World championships do it in an unsporting fashion?

And further Why do they need a wewbsite to dicuss these "variations"

Maverick, I would like you to explain to me how you can have a "Gentlemen's Agreement" and not have it written down? Its not that we are doubting their words or anything but where does one stand on the field , for instance on rigs and sails? There seems to be "total variation" just on that subject. Let me say this most honestly, That you have to correct the small variations before you can start on the BIG ones. Now if you can't correct the small ones, how can you move on to anything, like "different weights for different weather conditions" , "Barndore rudders",Balsa decks etc , etc? I would say that there is too many people going around creating little variations to their boat , thinking it is all to do with having a little play. The problems in this one design rule is to make it more like a catastrophy than anything else. If the want to "DEVELOPE" let them go to a class that encourages these things.

Henry

-- Edited by Henry at 21:20, 2008-01-23

ec12nz · Veteran Member

Please excuse the length of the reply below. It has been copied from a document created in December 2003.

Since this was written (not by me) most of the suggestions have happened albeit not within the timeframes suggested nor have they been written down to form a "rule or agreement" .

All I ask is read, digest and realise that the "gentlemanly" nature of the class is alive and kicking and will continue to do so in this class between countries. Whilst the racing is always serious there is realisation and respect between the competitors that we have slight differences between our boats but we all play the same tune, which we all too often see lacking in a number of other "international" classes

Cheers

Chris

An open letter to EC12 owners worldwide.

EC 12s and the International potential.

Over many years, or even decades, our beloved EC12 has spread across America and other parts of the world and, as you are well aware, in the process the hull shape has experienced a variety of well intentioned alterations. The downside of this has been a fragmentation of opinion of what is the right shape and polarised views as to who has the correct version. In America, as indeed here in New Zealand and probably in other countries, there are a variety of boats of subtlety different shapes in existence. It is clear that the new hull shape which we have in New Zealand is a little different to the current hull shape in predominant use in America, while both countries have grandfathering provisions which allow some existing boats of earlier shapes to continue racing in each country. Curiously the sail plan dimensions seem to have remained the same worldwide, except that our B rig is the same as the USA C rig, while our C rig is smaller again as we need to sail in more extreme conditions that our American counterparts.

There is a huge potential for racing our EC12s internationally, but in each country we need to overcome our local prejudices that say our version of the EC12 is the only one we will race against. This parochialism echoes the divisions seen between the different brands of Christianity and is as equally unproductive.

My contention is that for the good of the class, EC12 associations worldwide need to join together and get an International racing series off the ground. In 1964, when the full size 12 Metres were racing, there were small design differences between the competing yachts in shape within the very prescriptive 12 Metre rule but they were very similar in performance. So it is in 2004 with the EC12s, where there are varieties of subtly different shapes within what is recognised as an EC12, and yet there is negligible performance variation between the different EC12 shapes.

My proposal therefore is that we use the EC12 internet forum at www.ec12.com to discuss topics of interest like this one, with other EC12 sailors from around the world, embrace the small differences in hull shapes, agree on which rig sizes we will allow and get an international series off the ground maybe timed for January 2005. This event should not be pitched as an aggressive cut throat regatta , but rather focus on sportsmanship , collaboration and good clean racing to a high standard.

Here is an overview of my suggestions:

1) We identify from the EC12 family tree all the variants around the world that we describe as an EC12 and the builders of these and exclude any home built one off boats that clearly exist.

2) We use the existing 4 sail plan sizes as used in USA and NZ and designate them A,B,C, and D where ABC are to the current USA sizes and D is the NZ C rig dimensions.

3) We join and use the existing EC12 forum.

4) We establish by Feb 2004 a group of owners who meet electronically to sort the details of the first event and a process for deciding future venues and rule changes if any.

5) We sort early a clear and simple eligibility and provenance process which encourages participation by as many of the identified different variants as possible.

6) Since participating in this event will be costly to individuals it is important that it is promoted and conducted as a premium event, covers several days or even a week of racing and includes a good deal of off the water activities as well. This would encourage sponsorship opportunities.

7) And we need market research to see how many folk have the means or the will to travel to the best RC international yachting event in the world.

I am sure many of you in the EC12 world, both within New Zealand and overseas, have great ideas to help make this happen and we need to share them. Please get on to your keyboard and see what you come up with as I am looking forward to your thoughts.

Brian Hogg

Paraparaumu

New Zealand

-- Edited by ec12nz at 11:47, 2008-01-23

-- Edited by ec12nz at 11:49, 2008-01-23

Maverick · Guru

Henry wrote:
Let me make it clear here, I don't care what EC12s do! Up to now it is "early days " in Australia with the New EC12 rules . I have not even seen them yet . But if they don't match US & NZ all that will seperate them is a "Gentleman's Agreement", won't it? So no real harm is done.

The basic thing with One -Design is the idea that you don't make you boat a little quicker than the next boat. That you win by superior helsmanship,superior sailing skill and superior sail tuning.These are the things that people see in sailing one design.That all boats being equal , the above manly attributes come to the fore.

Henry,

I personally have to agree with most of your last paragraph above. That is where I see One-Designs also going, but sometimes, people need a bit of room to do their own special thing. That is a part of the natural human competitive spirit. So why not allow a little freedom with options?

On another point. Sail tuning I would definitely consider a tweak, as it can make a difference between finishing first and finishing last. But what of the skipper who does not have the fine skills needed for sail tuning, but has other skills, as in knowing how much a 20 gram shift in weight can make a huge improvement. Is he to be denied that opportunity to demonstrate his skill and to sail competitively?

And don't forget, even the most generous of gentleman's agreements need a starting point. That can be a formally written set of rules as a basis. Don't meet the basic rules? Sorry mate, we can't deal with you. It need not ever be written and to the letter, or, gentleman's rules. Why cannot there be a combination of both?

I have personally an IOM but I do not like the concept of the IOM, and as a general rule, I do not like IOM's. The original spirit of the IOM, to provide a basis for reasonable cost entry into the sport, has I believe been completely corrupted.

I would hate to see written rules become the sole arbitrator of whether your boat can compete or not. Within reason.

Maverick · Guru

Henry wrote:

Now Maverick the question to you is : is the gentleman's agreement known to you and what exactly does it say and is it written down or do we all take it on trust? If we all take it on trust , then we don't need any rules, because we are all Gentlemen? Is this what it is all about?

Please Explain?

No Henry. The gentleman's agreement is not known to me, but if I am reading things correctly, the gentleman's agreement refers more to the spirit of things, and that cannot be written down.

And you are absolutely correct. If you take the gentleman's agreement on trust, then we don't need any rules. And that is I believe the only reason that the Aussie EC12'ers are allowed to compete on equal terms with the international folks, 'cos we all know, the Aussie's do not have any ARYA sanctioned official rules.

And that wouldn't be so bad were it not for the fact that the ARYA have on their website been stating that they are revising the rules for a period in excess of at least three years now, so nobody really knows what the Aussies should be doing.

This is where the gentleman's, or spoken word agreements have been crucial to the success of international EC12 regatta's.

Maverick · Guru

Henry wrote:
I had further trouble understanding the terminology of the later part of the post as well for the "Gentlemen's Agreement" suddenly became the "Spoken Word Agreement". You see straight away I'm questioning whether we are taking about the same agreement?

You see folks, this is where one -design rules comes unstuck, when we all start talking about different things . Here is the very case in fact. In the last post where he was talking about heavy & light displacements to reflect conditions. I can tell you that this doesn't go towards a one design class. It points to a developement class.

And lastly , in my last visit to my measureing tape , I failed to note where the "Knats Whisker" was on the rule. Another good point about "Gentlemans Agreements", perhaps.

For those who were counting on a ONE-DESIGN, may have to wait a tiny bit longer. So where does the club sailor fit in to all these "agreements" . Well, He misses out of course, it becomes like a 'closed shop', for these types of agreement are not written down.

Perhaps someone could ask if you can point us in the direction where we can see these "agreements" where the "barndoor" rudder, Lead blob on the jib boom or the balsa -wooden decks were introduced? And who were the gentlemen involved in these agreements?

Henry,

I think it matters not whether an informal agreement between gentlemen is known as a "Gentleman's Agreement" or a "Spoken Word Agreement". As far as I am aware it is simply a matter of semantics and the intent is clear. A group of reasonable people have informally agreed to a set of conditions pertaining to a particular competition, or regatta, or whatever, in order for that particular activity to provide satisfaction for all participants.

As far as I can see, and sometimes that ain't that far, but it seems to me that were it not for the above verbal agreements Aussies would not be allowed to compete in International regatta's as the Aussie's have no rules!

"Knat's Whisker" - semantics simply demonstrating the cooperation between reasonable persons.

You do make relevant points regarding deck materials, etc., but these are up to the individual bodies within their own countries'. The fact that the skippers of one country accepting to compete equally against skippers of another country, even though for example deck materials may be different is compensated for by the restrictions imposed by minimum and maximum waterline lengths.

So what's the problem with this rule?

Once the boat has been initially certified under this rule, then for local, national, or even international competitions, maybe the much easier checking method of weight can be used. It does not have to be one method or the other exclusively.

Maverick · Guru

ec12nz wrote:
As an "interested party" and one who has competed in an event where the "gentlemans agreement" was very prevelant and relevant I offer a few words and thoughts from NZ.

I have read the proposal for AUS and submitted comments as "interested parties" were invited to do. An email back to me discarded any comments or suggestions offerd and I was deemed to not be an "interested party" as I was outside of AUS.

Well, EC, I'm sorry I am not in a position to be able to apologise to you on behalf of the Aussie's for what seems to be a very short-term, short-sighted approach by them.

I must say, that I find it a little disturbing that when a new set of rules for a National class are being formulated, and that comments are actively sought to help create a set of rules, that interested parties' comments can be totally ignored or rejected, based on subjective criteria. My definiton of an "interested party" would be anyone who has taken the time and trouble to make constructive comment on something they are interested in, and especially when comment has been invited.

What makes this particular rejection of comment even more unpalateable is that the EC12 Class is not just 1 or 2 boats sailing in an unknown little backwater. It is a boat that has not only a healthy National competition, but an International one as well. And to exclude comment, irrespective of content, simply because of location, seems to me to be, not to be, in the best interests of this class.

And as far as I am aware, were it not for the "gentlemanly" nature of the EC12 skippers themselves, in the USA and NZ and AUS, and if it depended on the strict adherence to rules as compared to the "spirit" of the rules, then perhaps the Aussie's would not be allowed to compete in international competition.

If that's not an argument for considering all comments, irrespective of where they originate from, then I don't know what is.

Henry · Senior Member

Let me get this straight? A little "Tweek" is changing your entire Lead keel or ripping your Fiberglass deck off and replacing it with a Balsa one?

What does one do if you do a major "Tweek"?

The way I read the rules, and I think the basic rule is "Keep all the boats alike as possible". Now reading this , I would say that a "tuning tweek" was another little fitting on the main boom or something in that order to give an added adjustment.

What you're proposing is a major alteration in the structure of the boat. And therefore contary to the One-Design rule.

Let me make it clear here, I don't care what EC12s do! Up to now it is "early days " in Australia with the New EC12 rules . I have not even seen them yet . But if they don't match US & NZ all that will seperate them is a "Gentleman's Agreement", won't it? So no real harm is done.

The basic thing with One -Design is the idea that you don't make you boat a little quicker than the next boat. That you win by superior helsmanship,superior sailing skill and superior sail tuning.These are the things that people see in sailing one design.That all boats being equal , the above manly attributes come to the fore.

-- Edited by Henry at 07:22, 2008-01-16