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Post Info TOPIC: Micro Magic - General Discussion Stuff


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RE: Micro Magic - General Discussion Stuff


GBR_Mike wrote:
I think part of the issue is we forget what it was like when we first come across Radio Yachting.

It's hard to put ourselves in the position of a newcomer as we automatically take so much for granted.
In full size we bemoan that people won't travel to Open meetings but we forget that some people have never even towed a trailer before or have never even taken the mast down.

With the MM we have a perfect boat for getting new people into the sport as long as we can pitch the promotion correctly.

Like I said it's not easy.

I can certainly empathise with the above comments, however, I don't necessarily think that it needs to be, or is going to be, easy. Would be nice if it was, but unfortunately, not to be. cry

And yes, sometimes participating in a sport for a long time, and having experience, must inevitably, in some cases, be restricting to the acceptance of new ideas, new methods, new approaches. Seems that it is generally accepted that many people do not like change, and I guess the longer one has been doing something one way, the harder it is going to be to change that.

But the biggest challenge it seems to me, is just getting the message out to the general public, out to the folks that may have always, or even just recently, had a hankering to sail a yacht, but been put off because they have never, ever, had anything to do with boats of any kind, never mind yachts, or even where to start looking to get information.

But one great source of information IS the Internet, and more and more people, of all ages, are becoming more familiar with search engines like Google where they can just type in a few words and get results. But even this only works when the information is out there.

With a few really good exceptions, Australian radio yacht sailing clubs, as a general rule do not provide much information about their activities on the Internet, or maybe their sites do not get updated for years on end, or their members do not participate in the broader web based community of forums', etc., thereby denying the sport of a great promotional activity.

This needs to change if the sport is to survive. The existing long standing methods of promotion no longer work, or if they do, it is at greatly reduced effectiveness.

And perhaps this is where the experienced folks can help. Where they can demonstrate their knowledge, their skills, and their desire to promote the sport. But they need to get on-line to do this. To show potential newbies there is an active an interested community that is alive and well.

This will never happen if information continues only to be given to the people that are already involved in the sport thereby continuing to leave potential newbies completely out of the loop and deprived of useful information.

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I think part of the issue is we forget what it was like when we first come across Radio Yachting.
This is also a problem when promoting full size sailing as well.

Normally those involved in the promotion are long standing sailors with years of experience and knowledge and whilst this is great for imparting information it is very hard to communicate it in such a way that is either not too technical or so basic its patronising.

It's hard to put ourselves in the position of a newcomer as we automatically take so much for granted.
In full size we bemoan that people won't travel to Open meetings but we forget that some people have never even towed a trailer before or have never even taken the mast down.

With the MM we have a perfect boat for getting new people into the sport as long as we can pitch the promotion correctly.

Like I said it's not easy.



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My personal thoughts are that the more "I"nternational the rule the greater the chance of success of any boat, irrespective of what class it is.

There must be, or have been, a fairly compelling reason why 14 countries, each with their own particular needs, have adopted the International rule in preference to any other. That being the case, it seems to me that the International rule should be the rule under which all International competitions are held. 

If any country wants to do its own thing, then let it. But those boats, if they depart from the requirements of the International rule, should not be allowed to compete Internationally, until they meet the conditions of the rule, especially when as stated previously, the thing that is important with the Micro Magic is that it is a boat, and a Class, that is sailed within "The Spirit Of The Rules".

That is something that should never be forgotten as I believe that sentiment is fundamental to the ongong success of this boat.

And whilst I have had some huge issues with the Australian administration of the class, I stand by my beginning and ongoing support in principle of the Micro Magic as a really great boat for the beginner right through to the most competitive sailor.

But my real support would be to ensure that anybody I introduced to this sport if by way of this boat, would be to make sure it is built to the International Rule specifications. To do otherwise would, I believe, to be an act of extreme stupidity and shortsightedness, and an indication of a total and absolute lack of big picture vision of how to promote this sport.



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 Well there you go.... I knew there was some rational explanationsmile.


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yes but with 1 possibly 2 countries using the German Rule and over 14 using the International rule I know where my money is!

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AHHHH, Good point Mav but which one? The German one or the Dutch one? Will  it be MMs at forty paces?biggrin

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GBR_Mike wrote:
In Europe there have been wars based on less!!

Ahh yes, but the time comes when all wars end. Hopefully sooner rather than later.

And hopefully all will see, eventually, the benefits of having only one rule.

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You are allowed to drill up to 6 additional holes in the deck.
These are used for external switches, bung, charging plugs, external sheet adjustment etc.
especially useful so that you don't need to open the canopy to gain access.
Not performance related

You are allowed to place an additional pice of material at the base of the keel boax to increase the mating area, (quality of standard moulding can vary) and also to give additional wear protection where the mast meets the hull. There have been a number of instances where the mast has pushed clean through the Hull!
Not Performance related

The abs servo tray can be removed from the MKI keelbox - this brings it in line with the MKII keelbox.
Not Performance related

Internal layout is free. In other words if you can think of a better way to layout your servos and sheeting/rudder arrangement then you are allowed to try.
Not performance related

Minimum weight is 860g - the weight of a standard MKII so not performance related in terms of improvement over OOB.

You don't have to fit the abs ballast covers but the finished ballast must still fit inside the supplied covers.
Minor performance increase, significant in easing build and finishing.

You are allowed spars of up to 7mm dia.
This enables people to replace a broken mast with the most common carbon light weight Kite spars available for usually around $5.
Performance related but only really kicks in when the standard rig is over powered anyway.

The rules for rig essentially set out a max height and size but running rigging is uncontrolled so you could run with or without shrouds.
Performance is reduced slightly but risk of snagging other boats is greatly reduced.

Sails are restricted in size by saying that no sail must extend further in any direction beyond the standard supplied sail.
Performance not increased but the use of smaller sails extends the weather window.

There is a restriction of only two servos to be used even though the MKII is designed to accommodate three.
This is to keep things fairer with the MKI which was not designed with a third servo and also to keep the costs down so you don't need a three channel radio and adding unnecessary complication.
Performance reduced slightly

The rules can be seen at http://www.micromagic.info/MMI_rule.pdf






-- Edited by GBR_Mike at 09:00, 2008-07-01

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So is this where we stand ... in confusion? How about , because you're talking about it Mike that you tell us about both rules? Just a general run down would be good,the salient points  and wouldn't it be good to get someone from the German viewpoint in to tell us what they think too?smile

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To be fair the Germans rule was the first.
Steven will no doubt correct me but the potted history is,
Steven didn't think the German Open rule would sell in Holland so he came up with a more restricted rule which allowed people to sail the MKI and modify the frankly woeful standard rig but keep things as simple as possible.
This was hugely successful in Holland over the next five years and was picked up in France, Spain, Portugal, Switzerland and to a lesser extent in Belgium and Canada.
I then met up with Steven in late 2006 and we produced the International rule and brought the UK, Sweden, Denmark, Finland and now the yanks and you guys.

The camps are somewhat polarised but last year we did get the top German sailors at the European Championship in INT legal boats and they seemed on the face of it to enjoy the event.
However the power base in the German fleet are still very entrenched in following their rule so apart from a few guys who sail both rules I don't think the German Association will fall into line with the International rule any time soon but you never know.

So given the history its not surprising the Germans felt and still feel a little aggrieved as their rule has been essentially sidelined and what's worse was it was instigated by the Dutch.

In Europe there have been wars based on less!!



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Well, I hope critical mass in Germany is reached sooner rather than later.

So many other classes have suffered because each country has adapted its own modifications to what would otherwise have been International Rules, thereby creating confusion everywhere. Confusion that need never have happened. Confusion that has probably caused many potential sailors to abandon the class completely.

My opinion for what it's worth is, if there is an International Rule, do not tamper with it. To do so is simply an act of shortsighted foolishness.

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There are a number of Germans who have built 2nd boats to compete in the International rule events.

An International rule boat can compete with the Open boats and apparently will be just as fast until the wind is over 10knts.
The open rule allows multiple keels of different weights and bulb configuration so in theory at least they will be faster up wind but some say they tend to be slower to plane downwind.

I have seen that a good sailor in a INT rule boat has won events at a German Open event.
There are a growing number in Germany that support the INT rule and we wait for the critical mass to be reached when we can gain an official foothold but there is quite a lot of animosity from some members of the Open Rule group which is a great shame.

With 14 Nations following the INT rules so far and just a couple following the Open rule I know where my money would be.


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Hi Mike

May I just ask something?

In international competition, how do the German "open" sailors go competing against the international rule folks? I mean, do people sail on equal terma or is there some other calculation method or do the Germans simply not sail in international competition.

I must admit one huge attraction for me is/was/is that the boat should be able to be sailed in fair competition anywhere in the world. I think that has got to be one of the main and important promotional aspects of this beautiful boat.

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For clarity I thought I'd detail the current situation.

There are two rules.

The German "Open" rule which allow a great deal of freedom and is popular in Germany with a few in France, Russia and a couple in Holland.
The MM designer, Thomad Dreyer, is behind this rule and his vision of how the MM should progress is very much based on a more open, free and less organised scenario.
In full size terms this rule is similar in form to the 18' skiff.

The International rule is a restricted rule.
Primarily designed so that the large number of existing MKI MM's can race along side the new MKII.
We have little desire to check boats at an event so the rules reflect those areas which are visually easy to check with essentially non-performance related areas left free whilst performance related areas given limits.
For example how you lay out your boat internally has little effect on performance, is difficult and time consuming to check so in the Int rule this area is left free.
Sails and rigs are performance related so there are restrictions on area, mast dia, (based on the most popular MKI adopted mast)
The rest is pretty much stock except for a few non-performance related items like fittings, tiller control.

In A rig conditions there is little if any performance difference between a bog standard MKII and a MKI or MKII modified to the Int rule.
In "B" rig conditions, with small waves the MKII is slightly faster downwind than the MKI.
Obviously any bog standard MKII using a B rig is no longer bog standard!
In very high winds there is a chain of thought that the MKI is faster than the MKII, especially upwind but again the differences are small and missing a tack or shift will make far more difference.

We made a mistake in the rules allowing people to use a MKI keel in a MKII hull and visa versa.
We admit this mistake but there is little proof that there is any great gain in performance either way and subsequently there are very few people who wish the rule to be changed.
So currently this remains as a regret on Steven and my part.

So the term "heavily modified" in terms of the Int rule is really an inaccurate term.
Yes there are mods, most are non performance related and those that are, are cheap and easy to do and not do not make the standard kit boat obsolete.
The additional rigs allow us to sail in winds greater than the designed parameters allowing us to sail in all conditions and at all venues which makes the class far more inclusive than almost any other RC Class, from sailing in a small pond of just 9" deep to racing round marks in a marina on the Med or like me on the North Sea in the same water as I sail my full size yacht.



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Thank you all for your contributions. I do apologise for being away for so long but I've been a bit busy with a few other things, including work. That will continue for the next couple of weeks at least, so I may be a bit tardy in commenting.

I would like to thank especially our international contributors for their reasoned arguments and Henry for playing to some degree, the Devil's Advocate. I suppose I should also include myself in that role.

By the way Steven, my profuse apologies for lumping you in with the Swede's, when it is the Netherlands that should be blamed. smile Err...., that should read "be praised". I am really sorry.

Right from the early days, before there was a Micro Magic Association in Australia, I had been discussing with both Mike and Steven my support for this boat and my absolute pleasure at the simple class governing rules that were in force at the time. I have been out of the MM scene for quite some time so I will need to reacquaint myself with them to see what has changed, if anything, but it was the simplicity that I appreciated. So good for a newcomer. So encouraging for a newcomer.

One thing I remember Henry saying, also in the early days, was that it would be a sad day indeed, to think that the MM rules would need to become like the IOM due to people making modifications that were not within the "spirit" of the rules, and it was this "spirit" that seemed to be evident, internationally, that really fired up my enthusiasm.

Mike has stated that in international competition, some heavily modified boats were beaten by stock standard boats. Obviously the skill of the sailor is the important thing. If that is the case, then that surely, must be good, and I guess meets my requirements for a boat that is as suitable for the newcomer as it is for the expert.

I would also like to thank Steven and Mike for their positive comments on the background of, and things affecting, the ongoing promotion of this boat.

But do not let the discussion stop here folks. It is all good.

Now, if only more Aussie's took the time to make their points known publicly, then that must also surely be good.

But I still stand by comments on publicity that I have previously made. It's OK to advise what is happening on special forums' and in the ARYA newsletter, but many newcomers, if not most of them, will not even be aware of these avenues of information. The ARYA newsletter is I think regular, except I still haven't received my copy of the last one, but it is only three-monthly or quarterly.

I personally believe we need more publicity like Adrian and Rhonda from Float-a-Boat have created. They sent a newsletter to their customers advising of a MM Regatta here in Victoria, and they followed that up with a newsletter with a brief summary of that Regatta. And that is to all people, not just the initiated. But I have not seen anything on the ARYA site or anywhere else for that matter, that a likely newcomer would have access to.

Like I have said before, even though this is primarily a 12-metre oriented site, it is there to promote any and all forms of radio yachting, with the most basic of objectives being to not only encourage newbies into this sport, but also to let them know what they may be in for, both good and bad. It is communication. It is information. It is opinion. And hopefully it is unbiased, in describing the state of play as it is.

Regards,
Don

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According to my latest figures that I gleaned from MMI on Sept07 was the boats regoed  to the kits sold was about 57%. Lets face it this is a great number and one that you should be very proud of. However the percentage of MOD boats would be even less of that 57% number.  Now the my question is , is the number between OOB and Mod side by side or what?

 Perhaps this boat is an intro type boat and not what we would like it to be?  Now don't get me wrong here , I'm not trying to destroy anything here but maybe you have found in hard racing the limitations of this little boat. And possibly, it is time for a more robust version of this class to take the strain of hard competition?blankstare

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Re the mods.
It's natural to want to improve both in terms of your boat systems as well as your own ability.
If you lose a race due to your sheet getting caught round one of the supplied fittings you will look for a way of avoiding this in the future.
Your shrouds get caught up with another boat at the start or on the mark.
If you keep breaking the control lines on the rudder/tiller when it's windy.
If your sheets tend to stick to the deck in very light winds or get snagged inside or a fitting breaks or gets lost.
The stainless sail eyes fall off or get snagged on the Jib topping lift
If your alloy kicker corrodes or you drop your boat and break a rig.
You want to paint your boat and don't want to use the supplied transfers.

In any of these scenarios should you be allowed to make a modification with non kit parts even if you could buy all the kit parts separately, which you can't.

90% if not more of the commonly used mods are about increasing reliability and removal of the risk of snags both internal and external.
Yes mods like panelled sails and 6mm dia masts are strictly performance related but in practice these are more cosmetic and aesthetic than delivering any significant benefit on the water as has been proved by the number of standard boats doing well in the hands of good sailors.

Our UK National Champion has a bog standard boat except for his panelled sails and 6mm mast.
He uses the rope tiller system and has to remember to change this often to ensure it does not wear out.
I use a rod purely because it's more reliable.
Does this make my boat any faster?
No, not until the rope breaks and then yes I'm a lot faster!




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it is also possible to roll the main up like a reefyawn

If you think you can attract people with such measures: then go ahead. To silly for words. The MM is a very well sailing boat. The MKII rig is excellent OOB. Sailors like that and do not want to throttle down. They like to play with their sails, good sails, nice shape, improve VMG., not turning their boat into a kid's toy (although in Holland we got some very good teenagers in competition).

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Well Mike I think you should qualify a Class on the number of boats on the water and sailing regular. Like have you got numbers of boats that meet that situation?
Not the number of Kits sold.

Obviously the Manufacturer would know  what quantities they have sold of that particular item. Otherwise a lot of materials could just vanish and they would not be the wiser.

 It is obvious that the Manufacturer is not going to change anything to do with the run of boats. So who do you think is going to have to change? Like it is a lot easier to take Joe to the mountain, than take the mountain to Joe.

I see in one of the posts where someone said a MOD boat was just as fast as a non MOD boat. Well , if this is the case (and I don't think it is) then why is it being done? Secondly , I see rudder pushrods on some boats where as mine are cord. Are push rods better or worse?

 And I saw where somebody said that they didn't want the class to divide , well I think this is divisional already and it is going to get worse as time goes on.

 As far as having 2nd a 3rd suits of sails for windier conditions, it is also possible to roll the main up like a reef. There are endless things to do and still keep the boat OOB.smile

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Ok you raise an interesting point in terms of how you quantify a successful or unsuccessful Class.
Should you use,

1, Number of boats sold
2, Number of boats sailed at local clubs
3, Number of boats at Open Meetings
4, Number of boats at National or International Championships.

With this information do you then factor in,
How long the Class has been in existence,
What spread Internationally does the Class have,
How many National Class Associations have been established.
How many websites have been established.
What are the visitor stats.

Some or all of the above may be relevant in gauging success but to be useful you need to use the same selection for all classes to make an effective comparison.

Graupner, the manufacturer, have produced 12000 mkI MM's since 2001 and just under 3000 MKII since Jan 2007.
They have had a few problems keeping up with demand to the point where they have been investing in new equipment which will increase production capability.
The manufacturer has been totally caught unaware of what he has produced.
They make their money from Planes, Cars and electronics.
Yachts are a very small part of their business.
They seem a little bemused about all the fuss that the boat has generated and it's taken time for us to get them to understand that keeping the specification stable is vital.

Actually requesting that they change anything at this stage will fall on deaf ears as the demand is so high for the current MKII and will also send a mixed message that they may not at this stage fully understand.
Remember also that the International body is still very much in it's infancy so our leverage is currently limited although we have had some commitments to maintain the bill of parts as it is and I feel they now understand the ramifications of any change.
This should ensure that our rules will also remain constant.













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Henry,

what experience do you have sailing and racing the MM and do you like the boat?

I am into this class since 2001 and into the rule making since 2003. I have seen so many people come and go with points like you bring up now.
 
Once you start sailing the MM and once you love it you realise that most of those 'urgent' points you come up with is theoretical nonesense. The MM is different and OOB cannot work. It will only create trouble for both skippers and organisers.

What I mean is when you want an easy to use rule with not to many check points, this rule we have now is excellent. It guards the key aspects of the MM and it guards the cost aspect, which is also guarded by the sheer size of the thing. It also makes it not to complicated or to serious when you want to organise a race, something that is hardly taken into account in any other rule existing in the RC world.

So again my question: do you love sailing the MM? Only if you do it is usefull to really discuss things with you. After you gained some experience in racing it in diiferent set ups and in different circumstances, you will be able to appreciate what is working for so many people and why all countries that use the MMI rule do not want to change one single sentence in it, even if the rule comittee thinks some things might need a slight improvement. We got a rule that is effective and that people like to use. Isn't that the ultimate objective for a class rule?

And if you don't care what I say here: why not start an OOB class yourself if you love the MM so much? If that becomes THE hit then the MMI rule might tend that way.. But let me tell you: we started with that OOB principle and evoluated it into the MMI rule :) All unessential stuff is taken out. That also avoids a lot of useless dicussions at the waterfront if a small modification to the boat is making you disqualified or is just a small modif? Realise this is a kit boat, so what is essential? We know Henry, do you?

oh and about the MM population in NED: There are about 1500 skippers that ever asked a sailnumber. 200 sail in our national series, about 500 sail in their local clubs, pools or harbours. They are a bit out of sight, but everywhere in Holland I encounter MM's sailing or racing. In the summer there are now 6 spots I know that sail weekly with 10-20 skippers on an evening. Most of those people take the boat with them in the car in the morning and when the weather is ok and they have some time they drive to such a sailing spot. Active GER fleet is about 60 boats racing, POR 60, ESP 40, GBR 40, SUI 40, FRA 40. FIN 30, SWE 5, BRA, USA?The fleet is still in a build up phase and there is a lot to come. A rough guide for any class is that 1/10th of the sailnumbers actually races. This counts for the MM too, although in start up phases it will be more.

The MM will be the biggest sailing class in the world. just step in and join the fun.

Hey Mav, where are you? You are also not responding to email. Get back.

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Thats very interesting Mike, However you make a few errors here , for instance a boat that is being built is as a "counted" boat ? As an example Aust Rego numbers for the M class is about 2000, that does not mean there are 2000 actual boats sailing or racing. The same with your figures as well. The ROW is a bit rubbery as well. The actual proof of the pudding is in the eating of it. I am only disputing the figures of boats actually competing , this give the true story.Does the 2000 odd boat in the Netherlands racing in all the championships. Some part of that 2000 odd? just how many, just as a rough guide, perhaps?

 Secondly, you say that partly the reason why modifications have been done is because of salt water, close sailing and other factors and somehow "out of date" factors  and that the OOB discipline  of the boat has changed, because of these factors. Well I accept that ! So what has the Class done about bringing the Manufacturer into line?

The further you go down this road, you get, the more of these things get out of kilter, you would agree? Basically , you're telling me that you were forced onto this track that the class is taking because of local conditions? So why not fix it? Because at some point it is either you (the class) or the Manufacturer has to fix it. Otherwise the OOB is not going to be anything like the boat on the water.smile

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Henry,
In Holland they have a good record of imported kits since the release of the MM 6 years ago and obviously a record of registered sail numbers.
I think I'm right that the Class Association captures around 1/3 of the kits sold.
In the UK, based on imports of the kit we capture about 25% of new sailors into the Class association.
I imagine the other MM nations find a similar situation and I concede that this conversion percentage is far lower than we would like.

Holland has by far the biggest fleet with 2150 registered sail numbers,
The Swiss, French, Spanish and Portuguese sail number registrations are currently around the 200 mark each although there are a number of people who have stuck with their sail number when updating their boat.
Finland, Belgium, Denmark, Sweden currently have around 150 registered boats between them.
The UK fleet, started 2 years ago has, 146 registered sail numbers.
The ROW including AUS is worth another 200 to 250 registered boats.
These numbers are all following the International rule.
Germany has over 500 registered sail numbers, although in Germany the numbers do not run sequentially and the majority do not follow the International Rule as they follow a far more open rule.

Proof of the above is available from the National MM websites which can be found via the International site at www.micromagic.info

My rather flippant remark behind why we modify is not 100% accurate.
The first MKI MM was shipped with a rig that was just not up to the job.
It was a two part alloy mast with spreaders and shrouds and variable quality sails.
The Dutch found that by changing to a carbon mast of similar Dia you could dispense with the shrouds which avoided snarl ups with other boats during tight racing and made rig changing a lot easier.
This resulted in a large number of people upgrading their MKI rig.
The MKII MM was released a little over a year ago and was based on the modified Dutch boats.
The rules therefore were written so that the large number of existing modified MKI's could race alongside the new MKII, keeping the playing field as level as possible.

We toyed long and hard in the UK with the idea of making the MKII rule a strict one-design, out of the box rule.
However there were a lot of issues,
Firstly this would have been against the other existing major European fleets.
As the MKII rig was far superior to the MKI it would result in splitting the Class.
Because many of us sail on the sea the mix of alloy, plated fittings and Carbon fibre mixed with electrics made keeping the kit in bog standard form a maintenance nightmare but by judicial change of some of the fittings salt water sailing was now not a problem.
The standard rig is good for up to 8 to 10knts before getting over powered so smaller rigs make a lot of sense, again especially for us sea sailors.
There are small wooden inserts for shrouds but if you are not going to use shrouds do you need to fit them?
The list continues and it shows that it's a lot easier to say lets have an out of the box rule than it is actually in practice.







-- Edited by GBR_Mike at 00:23, 2008-06-25

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Didn't I tell you Mav that there were lots of people who read your forum? So they have told you what you already knew. I find it a bit hard to swallow the "Boat of thousands" , though. Claims are easy to make but hard to prove. We saw those claims about another class but they were never proved!

Still the fact remains of If the boats were any good Why are they modifying them, his answer was that they like to fiddle. Gives a break! He tells us his wife and son has got one , is he going to modify his and not his wife's , does he want to eat cold bake beans the rest of his life?

 Well at least Mav, as I said to you before, you have their attention and you didn't get it by blowing sunshine!!biggrin

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Hi Maverick. Just as your name is Don, Mine is Steven and I am from Holland! not Sweden smile

I completely but then completely completely disagree with what you say about the MM. You sound a bit disappointed and I cannot relate that to the MM as I see it and also not to the AUS class the way it is starting up now. If you want your opinion to be listened to you should not bail out but hang on.

Things are in motion and after 6 years playing with the MM I can still say: this boat and this class is just fantastic. Fantastic sailing, fantastic racing, great and easy fun.

Just yesterday I went for a sail at the local river (the Lek in Culemborg) The wind was a gusty 5-6 Bft, sun was still shining low over the water and with current agains wind there where excelent waves. I put on my C rig and raced around for an hour, 'training' for the coming UK nationals where I want to beat all the Poms evileye

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1pT-w4amsY



-- Edited by Steven at 04:18, 2008-06-24

-- Edited by Steven at 05:38, 2008-06-24

-- Edited by Steven at 05:44, 2008-06-24

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Hi Mav, and the rest of you guys.

You know rules are a real pain,
You need them but at the same time you wish you didn't.

The Micro Magic International rules are no exception.
If we could ensure that the manufacturer would maintain exactly the same specification and didn't change suppliers of ballast, sails and release a new updated boat every now and then with little if no warning
and if there were not already over 2000 Micro Magics sailing accross Europe of varying specs, we wouldn't need a rule at all.

However life is never that easy, so we end up with a Class rule, a simple one, but a rule all the same.

Henry, yes there are a lot of modified boats, however a bog standard boat out of the box is just as fast as the most heavily modified ones to the International rule.
A recent event in the UK saw a standard boat beat myself and 16 other MM's out of sight because he was simply a better sailor.
2nd place at last years European Championships was a standard boat.
So yes there are modified boats but the modifications make little difference to performance and are controlled by the Int Rules.

Believe me when I say that if somebody came up with a mod that did make a significant difference, then the International committee would clamp down on it very fast as we have thousands of owners all over the world that rely on the maintenance of the level playing field.

Why modify in that case?
Because some people get extra enjoyment out of it, I know I do.

Mav, my vision is not really relevant to the direction the AUS class takes.
It's really a matter for you guys to define and us Pom's should mind our own business.
Every country has built their Class in a different way and what works up here won't nesessarily work down there.

The USA are about to kick things off and they are even more rigid in terms of organisation first, MM second.

As far as AUS is concerned, from up here, (with no prior knowledge of the history of AUS RC sailing) things seem to be going pretty well.

71 registered boats, various events organised and held and a committee that seems to be working well.
Quite how this sits in the wider RC yachting scene in OZ is again something that we in Europe are totally unaware as our measure of success in other countries is based on the number and rate of new boats registered and the number of events and attendees.

I think the MM is the ideal RC boat for new people.
Not only to RC yachting but to sailing as well and we have had a deal of success up here getting new people into the sport, including my wife and sons, who had exactly zero interest in the sport until the MM came along.

I think it's still a little early to judge on the success or failure of the AUS MM Class and experience has shown that the MM will be a success dispite our best efforts to foul it up smile






-- Edited by GBR_Mike at 22:41, 2008-06-23

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It just seems to me that my initial enthusiasm for this boat, based on on approaches by every other nation that sails this boat, was based on the fact that this boat as supplied by the manufacturer was the be all and end all.

And this all seemed to work until the Aussies got into the act.

And I find it interesting that the Aussies that have destoyed the adoption of the Micro Magic as the ultimate boat for the common man, as distinct as a boat for the elite, are the same contemptible jerks that have destroyed the popularity af all the other radio yacht classes in this country.

It was at this point that I got disgusted with what was happening with the MM, and it is my perely subjective opinion, that unless the present committee is disbanded I cannot ever see the MM becoming the force it deserves to be.



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Henry,

I am only one person in the overall scheme of things. My objective is to promote radio yachting.

And one way of I have of doing that is to promote frank and open discussion, between those who dare, so that folks in general have a better chance of knowing what's going on. Ignorance is so destructive.

My approch is in distinct contrast to the bookburners, who have so long ruled this sport, and who would keep people ignorant by denying them access to information and deleting posts which have views contrary to their own.
If this site can be a source of open information for those that would care to look, then that is all I ask.

I have no expectations beyond that.



-- Edited by Maverick at 22:35, 2008-06-14

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Mav , I don't want to be the perveyor of bad news here. But do you think you maybe be wasting your words on deaf ears. These  Deaf Ears have just about about made it a sport in itself of not listening. Yes , you can say what you like but  are they listening?

 More and more ( the evidence is there) of people not listening to THE experts anymore. the Experts  have bought it on themselves. There are lots of clubs "Doing there own thing". there is a steady stream of people just wanting to do club racing. The petrol thing is not helping the situation either.

 I hope that our sport can stay in there , with all these things that are going on in our sport, today. All I am seeing is these little testing problems emerging, especially with petrol , transport , inflation ticking on the outside of our sport. I could say to you Maverick , to leave the MM problem alone for there are lots of other things to address. There is to be said about people Modifying themselves right out of the class.

 Lets face it Mav , some people like doing MODS. Some people like fiddling with a little boat on the coffee table while they watching TV. And it is going to take heaps of work to ever get this little boat back to anything thing like a good boat as an introduction to the sport of sailing! People will look back in years to come and point to this boat as an example of what NOT to do in class building.

 With you pleading for them to stop , is not going to achieve anything except anguish for you . I would save you breath and watch it all undo. It may take sometime, for this to happen . They have to go through the bit were someone will do the ultimate MOD and then all hell breaks loose. Then the Experts start to loose out in the MODs war, so that all new boats are useless even out of the box as it appears even now.smile

Henry


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Henry,

After being one of the original contributors to the Micro Magic site and forum, and being granted in its early days, the days when the ARYA heavies were just sitting on the sidelines, waiting to see whether it was going to be a goer or not before committing their services, because I already had offerred my services, I was granted the honour of being one of the "Core" members of the MM in Australia. This I did not take lightly. And the way things were going was great. We had the support of "Mike" from the UK and "Stefan" from I think Sweden. And the MM forum would not have been the success it was without these guys. And it was going great. I even wrote a few editorials about this great new promising class.

But then things changed. The ARYA bystanders who now realised that the MM was going to be a real goer decided to get on board. But they bought with them the same attitudes that had proven not to work, and which have by any standard of measurement led to the demise of interest in those ARYA sanctioned classes within Australia.  

The very first thing these ARYA members wanted to do was to establish a committee, a structure, and they were not shy about putting their own names forward to volunteer themselves as office holders. Never mind promotion of the MM, they were just concerned about their status, now that other people had demonstrated they were interested in sailing this boat.

And I admit, initially I was caught up in this unsavoury approach. But I thought I could do some good. But my posts on the MM forums unless they have been deleted by the same people who delete dissenting opinions from the official ARYA Messageboard, will know that I very quickly withdrew my offer from any positions that may be available, as I considered the attention from these established, unperforming members of other ARYA committees were now entrenched in the MM committee. A position I considered detrimental to the promotion of this boat.

I had indeed even requested from Mike, the UK guru and ultimate administrator of the MM forum that he remove me as a member, as I believed that the MM had lost its way. He refused to do that. And I can make available reasons for that refusal. But I have not been back, as I have been completely and utterly disgusted by what the ARYA members have done to the MM. In fact one email I had from Mike indicated that he was disturbed by the direction the Australian MM committe were taking, but was OK with it as it prmoted the class.

Mike, I just wonder wether you still think the same way. I agreed with your vision, but the Australian approach absolutely disgusts me.

Sorry Henry, I went into a lot of detail in response to your post. I do apologise.

But hey, I am in the process of writing an editorial for the website. 

This editorial will also include a Q and A session with a menber of the ARYA and who is also a member of the Australian MM committee. I have advised this person that I will be doing this.

I decided to do this because I totally despise and disagree with the concept of folks not being able to discuss items of interest or issue publicly. I am absolutely and totally sick and tired of behind the scenes activities occuring related to the general health of the radio yachting hobby/sport. This secretive approach has already proven to be destructive and a negative influence on this sport, and I want no part of this destruction.

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Mav, have you been to the MM page recently? These people have just about modified the boat out of existence! One only buys the kit for the tranfers in the box , the rest is all modified. I know our boat is not like the ones appearing on the MM forum. How do we explain to people that the boat has got so many modifications?

 So what happen to the level playing field?? What happened for the boat for novices? The hotshots have bugg***d it again!


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Henry,

I'm not sure what you mean. I don't recall having apologised to anybody in recent times.

But if acknowledging great contributions to the sport is apologising, then I most certainly am guilty, even if I don't understand how that connection can be made.

It may have been noted that I don't shy away from trying to make constructive comments when I feel things are negatively affecting this sport, but I also do not shy away from publicly acknowledging things that affect the sport in a positive manner.

And lastly, am I not allowed to express my opinion, irrespective of whether others agree with it or not? After all, that's what discussion forums' are all about. Progress will never be made with anything if everybody thinks the same way. It is the differences of opinion, amicably resolved that drive progress.

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Well Maverick , you can take appeasment just so far! After giving them the flag to copy , what else remains . Do we give away Victoria for good measure?

 It appears that you have made SORRY almost an artform. First you were giving to the Kiwis , now it is the Poms. Where does it end?

-- Edited by Henry at 08:59, 2008-03-03

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Henry,

I'm just trying to give you some variety.smile

Oh, and by the way, the Micro Magic site has had a major revamp, so you might find it easier to use.

Just click on the following link to try it out.

http://www.aus.magicmicro.org/news.php

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Maverick
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I'm starting to worry about you MAV. All we wanted was another page! And we get STICKY , STICKY. Whats all this PLAVER? And after cancelling it all , now you're just letting it all hang there? As I said I can't understand you , at all.

 As I said , If you don't want to do anything about dicussing that little boat well thats fine. But you didn't need to go into REAMS to say so. Why bother?

-- Edited by Henry at 09:57, 2008-02-23

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This is the place to discuss anything and everything to do with Micro Magics, if for whatever reason you do not wish to, or are unable to, use the link below.

http://www.aus.micromagic.info/news.php

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