model yachting Australia - including d'12metre radio yacht forums

Members Login
Username 
 
Password 
    Remember Me  
Post Info TOPIC: Future of the Australian EC12 Class


Senior Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 185
Date:
RE: Future of the Australian EC12 Class


Bob

My understanding on Registrations (of any class) is that once a Boat is Registered then such a registration can never be removed. Not unless a written request from the Owner is received requesting this to be done.

Granted on Transfer of ownership the certificate of compliance is invalidated & a new one will be required to be issued to the New Owner.

This would not necessarily affect the Registration of the Boat.. And in my understanding the Hull would normally be marked in such a way as to identify the Manufacturer & it's construction number. With the Information the Hull ownerships can be easily tracked by the Registrar, providing the records are kept up to date. Another very good reason to maintain the Records & History of any class..

For an Older (no longer raced) Boat I would see that it should be easy to access the Registration of the Boat by identification of the Manufacturers marks.



From there it should only be a matter of recertifying the Boat & re-establishing a Certificate of Compliance. From reading the EC12 rules from 2008 it appears that this was required for all boats (old & new) from this time. Considering the 2008 Rules this shoud be a formality once the recertification is complete.. A Boat only has to pass under the current or past rules to be grandfarthered into the rules as they stand.

On the New proposal I would see that perhaps this would also be a formality as the registration existing in the past, would only need a boat to be recertified & as such this should mean the Boat would be grandfarthered in also.

If the boat was actively de-registered in writing by a past owner, then I could see a possible problem, but not one that would see a complete refusal to recognise the boat.

I could be wrong though.

Cheers

John






__________________


Veteran Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 99
Date:

  



-- Edited by Viking on Friday 30th of December 2011 04:54:27 PM

__________________


Veteran Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 99
Date:



-- Edited by Viking on Friday 30th of December 2011 04:52:26 PM

__________________


Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 17
Date:

Bob, as far as responsibility for arranging major regattas for EC12 once the OA business is concluded and we have control of the larger agenda for our class, I still will be advocating a strong alliance and cooperation with our national and state bodies in order to foster our class and it's activities with regattas and such like, just like any other class that is going around. It is just that our class under a tightly organized and astute grouping will be so much better placed when assuning our place in the wider radio sailing fraternity.

In short I intend to do everything that concerns EC12's so much better than any other class out there. So much so that with a little effort we will become what I believe will be the benchmark for others to emulate. My vision sees a situation arising that will make every EC12 member/owner so grateful that they chose an EC12 to sail, extremely happy and satisfied with their decision to embrace this class.



-- Edited by Straw on Monday 12th of September 2011 02:24:46 PM

__________________


Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 17
Date:

Bob, the position as I understand it is that only boats that have been produced from an ARYA sancioned mould and the accreditted builder that ARYA understands is directly associated with that mould is able to produce EC12 under the current regieme. This is what the rules currently state and any boats that have been produced under any other circumstances should not have been registered. I do not believe that there have been any new boats produced and registered in the recent past anyway so I think any concern along those lines to be mute in any case.

 So at the moment the status quo should be prevailing notwithstanding the current undertaking of Ken Dobbie to not further muddy the waters by approving any mould or builder until such time as the OA business is decided.

This makes perfect sense and is not impinging on any currently approved mould or builder. I suspect that because I am still waiting 2 weeks after receiving that commitment from KD and him promising to get me the information I seek, that he may well be having trouble with ARYA records and it would not surprise me in the slightest that they have no currently approved mould or builders accreditted on file with perhaps the exception od Ian Gilmour and his Gillies mould which is defunct and no longer viable for manufacturing purposes.

What is your reason for enquiry about this Bob? I for one am hopeful that ARYA do come up dry when they seriously look to see what they have on file with this stuff. It will make my job of inserting the new mould into the fray when we get control of matters that much easier.



-- Edited by Straw on Sunday 11th of September 2011 05:39:24 PM

__________________


Veteran Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 99
Date:

 



-- Edited by Viking on Friday 30th of December 2011 04:51:26 PM

__________________


Veteran Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 99
Date:

 



-- Edited by Viking on Friday 30th of December 2011 04:50:35 PM

__________________


Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 17
Date:

 

PLEASE COMPLETE AND RETURN THIS FORM USING THE ENCLOSED STAMPED ADDRESSED ENVELOPE.  THANK YOU

 

 

 

QUESTIONAIRE

 

   1)     Do you agree with the amended aims and objectives of the Australian EC12 Owners Association as described in the accompanying documentation and the original submission form?

 

 

 

                                            YES                                                       NO

 

 

 

 

 

   2)     Do you wish that the AEC12OA assume full authority for the EC12 class in Australia and that ARYA be requested to cede full authority and responsibility for the EC12 class in Australia to the Australian EC12 Owners Association Inc?

 

 

 

                                             YES                                                   NO

 

 

 

 

YOUR EC12

 

 

 

           Registration/Sail Number  ......

 

           Hull Maker/Mould and Number......e.g. Mini Mariner 22

 

If you do not own an EC12 do you intend to acquire one shortly?        

 

Are you a member of a local radio sailing club?  .........

 

                    (Name of Club)

 

 

 

Name  ........................Signed  ........................Date  ............

 

                                    (please print)

 

 

 

MEMBERSHIP

 

 

 

 


I have already renewed my 2011/12 membership

 

 

 

 


I wish to renew my 2011/12 membership fee $20.00

 

 

 

 

I wish to join the AEC12OA fee $20.00 which

 

 

includes 2011/12 membership

 

 

 

 


I do not wish to be a member at this time.

 

 

 

Payment for Membership can be made either by:

 

 

 

Including a cheque or money order with your return made out to The Australian EC12 Owners Association or by mailing it separately to The Treasurer AEC12OA, PO Box 1197, Gympie, QLD 4570.

 

or

 

           by Online banking   Please contact David Hill on  (07) 5483-6289 or email londonreef@optusnet.com.au

 



-- Edited by Straw on Sunday 11th of September 2011 05:19:49 PM

__________________


Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 17
Date:

 

AUSTRALIAN

EC12 OWNERS

 ASSOCIATION INC.

 

                                            Affiliated with the Queensland Radio Yachting Association

 

 

 

               Explanatory letter to all EC12 owners and members of the AEC12OA

 

 

 

Gentlemen,

 

 

 

I am writing to you today to provide you with information and a complete update about what your owners association has been able to achieve thus far and where we now stand in relation to our primary objectives as outlined originally in the submission that was lodged with the Australian Radio Yachting Association  last year.

 

 

 

This document will attempt to explain the events that have transpired to date and is an appeal to all registered EC12 owners, whether you are or arent presently members of the AEC12OA, of the importance of your ongoing support for the aims and objectives of the OA in its attempt to take control of the affairs of our class in our own right.

 

 

 

I apologize that this detail will be a trifle lengthy but unfortunately it is necessary to bring you all sufficiently up to speed in relation to the information that I believe is necessary to be brought to your attention if you are to be expected to make an informed decision.

 

 

 

ARYA CONTROL OF THE EC12 CLASS

 

First let me outline the situation in respect of the controlling interest of the class at this present point in time:

 

The national authority (ARYA) has complete control and sovereignty over the EC12 class in this country at the present time.  This means that ARYA own and control the current rule base, the ARYA currently say who are the approved and accredited builders of the boats and what moulds are sanctioned and approved for use in the construction of EC12s and control over all day to day business of the class.

 

 

 

It is not clear how it came to pass that the EC12 class ended up under the control of the ARYA (known then as AMYA) only that in the very late 70s or early 80s for reasons unknown it was decided that ARYA should be given control over the class.  I have put in a request with Ken Dobbie for copies of the minutes, etc, relevant to the takeover at that time to see if they throw any light onto the terms and conditions concerning the transfer of authority.  I have also been in contact with Steve Crewes, the ARYA historian, for further information.  Unfortunately Steve has suffered ill health recently, but he has nevertheless been extremely helpful in confirming that the control of the EC12 in Australia was not always in the hands of ARYA and indeed the power that ARYA currently enjoy was transferred to them at an earlier time also!

 

 

 

This situation is unique to the EC12 class alone and it is, in 2011, a very disadvantaged position to be in as far as the fostering of our class is concerned.  Not one member of the ARYA executive owns an EC12 or, in my opinion, is even faintly interested in matters EC12. The question is then  what on earth is ARYA likely to do or dream up that will further the interests or promote our class of radio yacht in the foreseeable future??  Nothing, I would argue.  This is the very thing that occurred to me about 2 years ago when this whole idea got off to a start.  This is precisely where I came in with this multi faceted proposal and submission seeking all boat owners support in this endeavour.

 

 

 

I have been attempting since last March 2010 to have the terms of the submission fulfilled as per the wishes of the members.  It would be counterproductive to detail the frustrations en encountered in dealing with ARYA so far.  Suffice to say it has been an extremely difficult and tedious process for all concerned and the lengthy period where Ken Dobbie was absent due to his ill health further frustrated matters.  However it now seems that we are within sight of the finish line of achieving our aims.  Just a little while longer with the necessary patience and I believe with your united support we will pull this effort off!

 

 

 

THE MOULD A POSITIVE NOTE

 

I am pleased to announce that the promise of obtaining and paying for a replica mould of the current official American and New Zealand boats has been achieved and it is currently here in QLD unpacked and awaiting the prospect of production of new boats.  However while the present state of flux in respect of the handover of responsibility for the class by ARYA to the AEC12OA exists, the use of the mould is regrettably not contemplated at this time.  We of course could build boats but it would be unlikely that the ARYA registrar would issue  registration numbers at this time, so boat production at this point would likely be a futile exercise as far as constructing legitimate ARYA registered boats is concerned.

 

 

 

POSITIVE SUPPORT FROM EC12 OWNERS NEEDED

 

At this juncture it appears that for the submission to be approved, it will be necessary to prove to the ARYA executive that the AEC12OA has at least a 70% majority of all known and still kicking registered EC12 owners as members.  I am pleased to say that the ARYA secretary has supplied the OA with a definitive list of names that they recognize as fitting the criteria of all known registered owners.  This communication will be going out to every person on that list who is contactable with an enclosed OA addressed and stamped reply envelope that will contain the affirmation wording for the members/owners support for the aims and objectives of the OA as well as a membership application or renewal form.  The executive of the AEC12OA cannot express strongly enough the importance of membership affirmation response to this letter by all owners.

 

 

 

Only by joining and ticking the box that you agree with  the aims and objectives of the OA, will we be able to definitively prove to ARYA that this is the direction that owners wish to follow and take back control of our class of radio sailing yacht and be masters of our own future.

 

 

 

We have been informed by Ken Dobbie of ARYA that if we present this proof, then he will recommend that ARYA divest themselves of the responsibility of the class and confer the authority for the class to the OA and acknowledge that the OA is recognized by ARYA to be the sole authority for the EC12 class in this country.  At that point we are on our way to a very bright future in my opinion.

 

 

 

To that end it is important to convey to all owners the form that the approval from ARYA should take:

 

 

 

The approval to be given in writing on ARYA letterhead with the ARYA acknowledging that it recognizes that henceforth, the Australian EC12 Owners Association Inc is the sole authority that it recognizes for all matters, control of the rule base and all day to day business for the EC12 class or words to that effect.

 

 

 

THE BENEFITS OF CONTROLLING OUR FUTURE

 

Our vision that is held for the class may be regarded by some as a little radical but if you call controlling our own rule base and being able to produce and sell brand new EC12s at a little over cost price radical, well then by all means continue to call us radical .  We are in a position, my fellow EC12 owners, to turn this aspect of radio sailing yachting on its head. By that I mean to be able to promote our class directly and to sing its praises by indicating its strengths, like being a strict one design class which indicates that it does not matter whether your boat is 30 years old or just popped out of the mould yesterday, they both will be competitive and it is only the bloke on the sticks that will make the difference.

 

 

 

In addition to that, one of the main attractions for our class will be that any new chums that are considering taking up radio yacht sailing will find it very difficult to ignore the attractiveness and very affordable price of our boats.  Because we will not be cap in hand to any commercial builders as is the norm in just about every other class of radio control yacht going around.  We will have a huge advantage in attracting those new sailors (and existing ones in other classes for that matter) because of the extreme affordability and value for money that our class will offer.

 

 

 

Has anyone priced up a new IOM or A class or 10- Rater lately?  Suffice to say that our yachts will have no profit margin built in to their price and possibly only a modest $50 royalty charge for the benefit of the OA coffers will be attracted.

 

 

 

I could bang on all day with my enthusiasm for what we are on the cusp of being able to achieve with this but I expect most people are fully aware of the advantages once the OA becomes fully operational.

 

 

 

As an indication of what we can look forward to, I can announce that Rick West, the secretary of the American EC12OA, has renewed his request to come to Australia with an American EC12 contingent for the competition for the Morgan Black trophy.  This is a huge plus for the OA.  He has suggested that it be held in QLD.  This is feasible and we have time to prepare for it. At first it seemed doubtful that it could go ahead because our dealings with ARYA had not advanced to the point that the OA was the appropriate liaison but with the OA being incorporated in QLD and being directly affiliated with QRYA there is no problem.  I do hope however that the transfer of authority from ARYA to AEC12OA has been effected by that time.

 

 

 

SOME ISSUES THAT NEED TO BE ADDRESSED

 

On a different vein I believe it to be proper to indicate some of the issues that have held up the process of ARYA approval.  I believe 2 main factors were at play preventing ARYA from acting positively prior to this:

 

 

 

1)       A few individuals were concerned that it was the intention of the OA to ban the production of EC12s from existing moulds and have the new American Standard mould that we now have in our possession to be the only official mould able to be used.

 

2)       There were a number of fence sitters who did not have inclination to join the OA when it was first formed due to a number of reasons including that there was a degree of perceived politics involved in the move and it was simpler to sit on the sidelines and observe which way the wind would end up blowing before making the fateful decision.

 

Let me make a few comments on these matters.  At the recent National titles in Sydney, I had the opportunity to address the attendees there and familiarize them with what we are on about with this OA business.  I asked for and received an explanation from the small but vocal opposition that was emanating from a few of the NSW EC12 sailors and the only real gripe was that there apparently exists the old Lakesedge mould that is located on the south coast of NSW and it was feared that the OA was going to ban it from being used for construction purposes.

 

 

 

I believe all old moulds should be retired from use in favour of the new American mould which is owned by all OA members.  There are many reasons why this would be the proper and sensible way to proceed but in the interests of unity I indicated that the OA would tolerate the Lakesedge mould if necessary and I repeat that commitment here publically with certain provisos.  To that end I have written to Ken Dobbie asking for confirmation of what accredited builders and recognized moulds they have on file as being legitimate at this time.  We will then use that information when it comes back as the line in the sand as far as those matters are concerned.  In other words, if ARYA indicate that there are no recognized moulds or accredited builders currently on file, then thats it and have done with the matter.  When we have a response from that enquiry we will in the OA acknowledge same.

 

 

 

In the meantime I have also asked and received a commitment from ARYA that no further licenses or accreditation will be entertained by ARYA pending the resolution of the OA submission.  This will mean that only if the ARYA confirm that the Lakesedge mould is on file as a legitimate approved mould and is still under the ownership and control of the person or entity that was given accreditation by ARYA to build, then the OA will accept this.  By the same token that goes for any other mould that may be floating around out there and the same provisos will apply to them also.

 

 

 

In any case I believe it inevitable that people requiring the production of a new EC12 will come to the OA as we will have a superior product in my opinion and that pretty much says it all.

 

 


 

 

OUR COMMITMENT TO GRANDFATHERING RECOGNITION OF EXISTING EC12s

 

It is important to note here and reaffirm to all owners of existing registered EC12s that those boats are all grandfathered and will continue to enjoy inclusion and the right to compete in all ARYA/State RYA/Club/AEC12OA events and regattas.

 

 

 

YOUR MEMBERSHIP IS CRITICAL TO ENSURE THE FUTURE OF THE CLASS

 

Membership of the OA is the pivotal central plank of the future of the class and as such must be a fundamental requirement if we are to achieve ongoing success with the class.  If we embrace this OA direction, it is incumbent on all of us to jealously adhere to the OA and protect its integrity and ability to foster our class by our ongoing support and loyalty to it.

 

 

 

As far as all fence sitting is concerned, it is really important that all people in this position be prepared to cast a supportive vote and support the OA in this endeavour now.  We cannot afford any more procrastination.  I believe this to be our last shot in the locker and it is really a speak now or forever hold your peace type of situation.  The fate of our class going forward now tips in the balance.  Only you the owners can influence the outcome.  The answer to this is clear.  Simply join the OA!

 

 

 

OTHER CURRENT MATTERS

 

In addition to the above mentioned problems currently being faced by the class, I should probably draw the owners attention to two additional pressing matters.

 

1.       As part of the frustration and my mistaken understanding of rejection of the submission by ARYA as indicated by its appalling slowness of attending to the matter, I resigned as the National Class Coordinator.  This appears to have been an error on my part as subsequent communications from ARYA indicate that it is not anti owner class associations.  Nevertheless to my knowledge nobody has taken over the role and the class is rudderless as we speak with no official line of communication between owners and ARYA.  Just another basket case situation that prevails in relation to our situation.

 

2.       The current EC12 rule base expires at the end of this year and with no one for ARYA to liaise with it is not entirely clear as to what the implications of that will be either!!

 

 

 

THE BUSINESS END OF THIS COMMUNICATION.

 

Within this packet you will find 3 separate items:

 

1.       This explanatory letter outlining the current situation with the AEC12OA and the progress to date with the previously outlined objectives.

 

2.       A voting paper where it would be appreciated if you would tick 2 boxes, either yes or no to the 2 questions asked.  This paper also includes a membership joining or renewal section.

 

3.       A stamped and addressed envelope for you to return your voting paper.

 

 

 

Most of the above listed items are self explanatory.  However I would draw members' attention to the upcoming AGM and the mandatory call for nominations for office bearers.  I know that it would be welcome to some of the current incumbents that other people nominate for the various positions on offer.  I will stand again for the presidents role but that does not preclude anyone from nominating for that role also.  Please give this some thought as we would welcome some of the executive to hail from some other place other than QLD!

 

 

 

I think all of the above covers matters as we are presented with at present and I really hope that all you owners get onboard with this effort so that we can get this done once and for all.  I commend the concept of an owners association to you all as the only viable way that I can see of saving our class and getting onto a growth path and being able to benefit from what this boat offers us all:- FUN!!

 

 

 

Kind regards

 

 

 

 

 

Peter Morris (Straw)

 

President AEC12OA

 

 

 

NOTE:   If you know any EC12 owners who have not received this letter please advise me (07 5478 5650)  straw@focusqld.com ) with their contact details so I can also send them this mail-out.

 



 



 



-- Edited by Straw on Sunday 11th of September 2011 08:42:11 AM

__________________


Senior Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 185
Date:

G'Day Guys

Got my AEC12OA Pack the other day & have enjoyed reading through a clear explanation from Peter. It is a fairly long read but over a few days & revisiting important passages I came to understand a great deal more.

The matter of the Moulds in my opinion is a sound & positive outcome & for that I thank all involved in coming to this conclusion. 

Not sure if my vote would count at present as I am only in the process of locating & negotiating the purchase of a boat. And at this stage it would probably have to be stored over east until my next visit mid next year.

But with this in mind I have answered both questions in the affirmative. If I manage to acquire & transferred a boat before the tabling of the vote then great, if not then I have merely demonstrated my support. 

 

Cheers

 

John

 

   

 

 



__________________


Senior Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 185
Date:

Bob

Not sure if there are Personal Conflicts at play.

Some could suggest that by identifying areas of concern that this then escalates to an immediate conflict. Wars were fought for less... Curious world we live in.. ASk questions & identify areas that need improvement & anonymous somebody, somewhere gets offended.

I don't think that anything I can say would sway the Somebody one way or the other.. If I could then that would be an excuse to avoid doing what is ight in my opinion. Being offended and acting in defence of that feeling is fraught with danger..

Yes indeed the ALL EC12 owners need to be included & heard.. Not disregarded because a few don't like the message..

If there is light at the end of the tunnel then nothing I or anybody else could say should sway the outcome.. Safe to say if the process is not completely open, then there may be reason for some to complain. What then ?



Once the EC12OA gets authority of the class (I hate the word Control )... they will then have to engage those non-members of EC12OA to encourage their involvement. Finding ways to include everybody with an EC12 (Old & New) & encouraging active imvolvement & promoting the future of the class.. . Failure to do this could leave a split not unlike that which exists now.

I hope it all works out as the passing of authority will not necessarily see an end to perceived hostilities...







-- Edited by waboats on Friday 2nd of September 2011 06:57:49 PM

__________________


Veteran Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 99
Date:

 

 



-- Edited by Viking on Friday 30th of December 2011 04:49:53 PM

__________________


Senior Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 185
Date:

Viking wrote:

Stop and remember one point folks who is watching this forum and taking note of what is being discussed???

 

           

  


 

 

Bob

 

Personally I don't care WHO is WATCHING & TAKING NOTES..

 

If they had the moral fortitude & conviction of their beliefs they would contribute to the discussion in an open & frank manner.

If there are issues of poor managemnt & promotion then this needs to be dealt with.  

Burying ones head in the sand is in part what has lead to the EC12 situation. It happens to all classes in one way or another.

 

If the Powers that Be & Looking then perhaps that is a good thing.. They can formulate their retaliation if they so choose.

My Guess is you are saying that by being concerned about some issues that perhaps the person with the Big Stick might wield it against the class.. More in Spite rather than good conscience.. An unfortunate regular outcome in OZ..

Then we see attitudes change & spill down to the lake & spectators eventually get disenchanted with the whole hobby of Radio Sailing..

 

So in promoting the EC12 the first thing that needs looking at is why it is in a mess & who are the protaganists..

 

How would you qualtify who has an interest & a reason to contribute to the EC12 class..

 

The Register of Financial Members held by each state is flawed & doesn't maintain actual records of Boats for each member.

 

This creates a problem when deciding who can & can't have a vote or contribute. The ultimate & only way of knowing who can is by Membership of an Association specific to the class..

 

Good luck sorting out the current list that Mr Dobbie believes is accurate. My guess is that it isn't complete & up to date.. NOt taht he should have a copy of owner details anyway. His part is purely the State Council Subscriptions & that is a simple overall numnber covering ALL Classes.. 

 

When it comes to a decision or vote who & how will this be resolved?  That is the dilema facing the EC12 before you can even consider what teh outcome may or may not be..

 

Hopefully WHO is WATCHING will take NOTEs & provided for an accurate response.

 

Cheers

 

John 

 

 

 

 

 



-- Edited by waboats on Friday 2nd of September 2011 03:10:01 PM



-- Edited by waboats on Friday 2nd of September 2011 03:10:30 PM

__________________


Senior Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 185
Date:

http://picasaweb.google.com/106543786004768017106/EC12_DetSista?gsessionid=rUxl76PF738L6m83i0lJKA#



__________________


Veteran Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 42
Date:

To all,

Anyone contemplating building an EC12 or any other large size class of yacht might want to have squiz at this blokes effort.

http://picasaweb.google.com/106543786004768017106/EC12_DetSista?gsessionid=rUxl76PF738L6m83i0lJKA#5120930373438857154

I can't help but wonder what issues if any he had in getting his boat inspected and approved. His friend also has an EC12 therefore making two in Sweden.

Sorry, but you will need to copy and paste the link. I admit I am useless at puters. 



-- Edited by Gesst on Thursday 1st of September 2011 08:46:40 PM

__________________


Senior Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 185
Date:

Harry

As they say in any Marketing & Customer Service area.. A Satisfied Customer may tell one or two about their experience.. A Disgrunteled customer will tell Ten or more...

 

Have to say I like teh RG65 idea. The only problem I found is finding suitable Lead Ballast  in Australia.

A Full Kit would be nice.. The Noux65 is available in Oz http://radiosailingshop.com.au/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=25&products_id=495

 

I seem to think that the future of Radio Sailing will come down to a variety of classes not just the accepted International Fab 4...

The Sooner Australia embraces a Class Based Culture & away from the Political Power Struggles, the better off the whole thing will be.. It shouldn't matter what class a person sails their Money is as valuable as the next persons..

The Saddest part is the money collected is never used in proper promotion. It is usually hoarded up to be spent on the next big thing. Whatever that is.. Yep just like Y.A  .... .

Being from NSW you're lucky.. You pay $3 to the State if you join a club .. In WA far more. Not sure why the inconsistencies.. They all do the same things.

 

Maybe it would be best for you to hold off on EC12 Rego until the Muddy Waters clear a little.  Whatever happens in the end lets hope common sense prevails..

 

Certainly not worth the Bun Fight...

 

Cheers

 

John

 

 

 

 

 



-- Edited by waboats on Thursday 1st of September 2011 07:54:14 PM

__________________


Veteran Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 42
Date:

G'day John,

For the time being I am just going to let sleeping dogs lay regarding certification of the boat(s) and maybe after the waters have cleared a bit and maybe common sense has prevailed then I will re-consider it. If at the end of the day nothing comes to fruition then my friends and myself will have us our own sailing club. I am in total agreement with you regarding the benefits of having a registered boat I am contemplating building an Apsara and a Alcaravan RG65, another class that is not recognised by the powers in power in this country.

The way I see it from where I am (on the outside) nothing will happen till the new mould is approved by the ARYA and when that happens then I tend to think that the current rules will need to be changed to reflect that the new mould is now of the same shape as what is being sailed in the US and in NZ. Remember rule 5.1.13? What I would like to see happen is that the rules change to such an extent that any boat, regardless of country of manufacture can be measured by an appointed measurer and if it passes then be allocated a sail number for the country in which you reside. I don't know how other people feel about this or if they even care. I read that there has been a major falling out between some of the Qld'ers and the NSWelshmen, this is obviously not a good thing for a fragile class to happen.

I agree with you about the fragility of the Solings but at about $140 what can you expect, they are a cheap boat, made cheaply. That is not to say that aren't a fun boat to sail, they are. I recall a friend of mine buying one and then having to strengthen everything in it. Hardly the sort of thing you should have to do.

On a final note, it wasn't me that the mat was pulled out from under, it was another friend of mine.

Harry

-- Edited by Gesst on Thursday 1st of September 2011 06:52:12 PM

__________________


Senior Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 185
Date:

Harry

For what it is worth my belief is that if you own a class of Boat regardless of whether you want to join a club or race it in competition you should still be able to have the Boat Measured & certified within the class. What that means at the moment in EC12's is anybody's guess.. I say if it is convenient then have it measured. Maybe wait  get all 3 done at the same time.

I assume that old boats facing a re-measure will be allowed to be grandfarther in, even if they haven't had a certification in the past. So long as it meets past meaurement requirements.. Maybe others more technical than me could enlighten us.

If all the past information is true then Registration will only enhance & assist maintaining its' resale value. Why wouldn't you want a Registered Sail number & race on an informal basis.

Who knows with a bit of local interest, members of other clubs might like to visit at your location just to enjoy a days sailing. 

I hear you when you say there are some discrepanies in the information received.

Radio Sailing should be all about Inclusion & Encouragement regardless of what you have to sail. OK some classes can't sail together for fear of damage in the event of a collision, but it all comes down to how the message is delivered.

The Soling by construction could be seen by some as a fragile boat & they fear bigger boats. My Micro is always in danger from IOM's every time 1 is near by.

Something about a big boat wanting to bully the little fella.    

 

I agree, if you don't feel welcome stay away.. If the Welcome Mat was pulled out from under you I would hope it was probaly more out of fear of the unknown rather than spiteful. Not acceptable either way though & that needs improving..

 

How you are going about things sounds great to me.. At the very least you know what not to do when other visitors arrive to have a sticky beek...

 

Cheers

 

John

 

  



__________________


Veteran Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 99
Date:

 

 

 

     



-- Edited by Viking on Friday 30th of December 2011 04:46:03 PM

__________________


Veteran Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 42
Date:

Hello Bob,

At the risk of treading on more toes and offending even more people than what I seem have done on here already with my few posts, the people at St. Georges Basin do not like anyone to attend that doesn't have a Soling. A friend of mine was invited to sail with them with one of his boat, I don't recall if it were an A class or his Marblehead but after several races, each of which had more handicap applied after each preceding race and he still won. An impromptu meeting was called and apparently a huddle of sorts happened, a duly delegated bearer of bad tidings was dispatched and informed my friend to take his boat and to p**s off and not bother returning. So I think you will understand if I choose to stay clear of these people and let them enjoy their Solings.

I did manage to take photos today but this thing called life got in the way and I haven't as yet looked at them to cull the dross from the gems nor did I manage to rig any sheets as I had said I as going to. Bloody life getting in the way again.

Harry

__________________


Veteran Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 42
Date:

Hi Peter

No Peter, you were not rude to me at any time but at the same time I would not go so far as to say we had a discussion. I think you may be a little bit mischievous here by stating that I am now a little more forthcoming with information as I clearly recall stating I had two Mini Mariner hulls and the NZ one. Regarding the quote that I posted, that is exactly what you said. When you say that I said "I will not be involving myself in any racing or club activity" that is your interpretation of what you believed I said. In fairness to you and to maybe anyone else that is or may be concerned, yes I arrived unannounced on the day believing that I didn't need a special invite to attend to what is after all a public reserve, further to that I was not aware that the political situation between the AYRA and the EC12 community had become hostile and toxic nor that you were no longer the NCC. I do not wish this situation to degenerate any further nor do I want to seen to be the instigator of a flame war.

When asked by Peter (I had no idea who he was) if I was going to register the boats I replied that I probably wasn't going to, when asked if I was going to race them, again, probably not. After all how can I race a boat that has no measurement certificate? The last question that was asked of me was if I intended joining the EC12 owners association, I said no, as Peter has indicated, my reason being that I had no wish to contribute any funds to the ARYA as I have as much respect for them as I do for Yachting Australia, that is to say, none.

The only person that had introduced himself was Bob who I now know was Bob Tonge, I was admiring his boat and we got to talking and as it happened your car was parked next to his when you came over and sat down on the grass with us.

As I have already stated in a previous post I will be building the boat according to the NZ rules and would not even contemplate trying to have it measured under the Australian measurement rules. I honestly believe that it would have a snow flakes chance in hell of ever succeeding. The two Mini Mariner hulls on the other hand I may have measured at a later point in time.

I do wish that if we happen to meet at any time in the future that the meeting may be a little more amicable than what It appears to have been here or at the nationals.

Best regards, Harry

__________________


Senior Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 185
Date:

Bob

I agree with your comments completely..

Unwashed.. Never.. I bath at least once a month & collect the water for next time.. We are on water restrictions over here after all..

 

This incident you mention is unfortunately not isolated to One Class nor one State.. It has more to do with the Racing Culture.. Don't bother me I'm racing...

Valid Point but on normal sail days the same is starting to creep in..

Complaining about it to anybody is probably not a good thing.. You know where that gets you..

I can see that Dead Horse risiing for another turn around the track.. biggrin

Personally I think what Harry is doing is the way of the Future.. Build a boat & a spare or two & get your mates to join you at the lakeside. From there more may join in the fun & do the same.. Isn't that how it started many moons ago... Old Age makes us forgetful. evileye

 

Sailing tomorrow @ Port Kennedy (160km round trip) & have to charge 3 boats, Mine & 2 Loaners..  Just about hooked & landed another one... Roll on the Revolution...

 

It's not about the Racing.. It's about how you start out & plan on getting people involved.

 

Sail for Fun ... Not Plastic Hardware...

Cheers

John 

 



__________________


Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 17
Date:

In the interests of staying out of any further debate regarding the politics of radio sailing, I have chosen to remain quiet more often than not and will maintain that position now till the end of this effort to secure a more satisfactory control and administrative rejeime in the interests of the EC12 class.

I do however want to take issue with the poster who goes by the handle of "Gesst". He has indicated to all readers, that in his discussion with me at the recent Nationals, that quote" Well your not much use to us", gives the impression that I was arrogant and disinterested. For the record, I can assure everyone that I was anything but! This gentleman just arrived unannounced on the day and I actually approached him when I observed him speaking to one of the other competitors, Bob Tonge.

I introduced myself and made direct enquiry of him as to what his interest in the class and the sailing was to which he replied in a way that I thought was quite odd. He did indeed indicate that he had 3 EC12 and when I remarked about the uniqueness of that and enquired whether he intended to become actively involved in sailing and perhaps racing, he replied emphatically in the negative. It was not just a maybe it was a definitive "I will not be involving myself in any racing or club activity.

To say that I found this comment odd, would be an understatement, and it can be understood why i made the comment I made albeit in a light hearted and jovial manner. What can I say, it takes all types I suppose so it is understandable why sailors would not be inclined to spend much time with a person who indicated that they were not interested in the group fraternal activities of the class but by the same token, self confessing that he was there only in the capacity of having a  snoop! I think I then went on to plead that he at least contact the OA to provide details of the boats that he holds if only so that we could keep track of them for archival purposes. With that the gentleman disappeared and I have not heard anything further until he has popped up on this forum!

Having said that, it now appears that our friend here is a little more forthcoming in respect of his situation and agenda. I was aware that a NZ hull had recently been imported into Australia (gesst did not reveal this fact when he spoke to me at the Nationals) and now the owner is confronted with one of the exact problems that I have been attempting to deal with for 18 months or so. It is  more farreaching a dilemma than just a simple measuring problem with many issues on the agenda that only a smooth and definitive transfer of power and authority to an OA can solve. I knew this would eventually crop up as a problem due to the case that one cannot buy new quality EC12's here in Australia.

To our friend with the NZ hull, may I respectfully submit that you do not present that boat to any ARYA sanctioned measurer for registration purposes until such time as there has been a resolution of the OA submission matter. At that time when certain alterations to the rule base is agreed to, you will find that the process will be somewhat smoother. Do not let any ARYA related person even see it!

If you persist in attempting a measurement, all you will end up doing is setting yourself up for a rejection of the boat due to an assertion that it does not come within the bounds of the current rule base. I personally do not believe this is the case, however the current chief technical officer of ARYA does and as such I would bet pounds to peanuts that the moment the paperwork ended up on the ARYA's registra's desk with its build origin there for all to see ( assuming you can get a measurer to successfully do it), there would be an immediate flagging to that measurer to justify the measuring in of this boat.

To save yourself the time and trouble, by all means complete the construction of the boat and sail it without registration for the time being. There should be no problem however with the other 2 boats.You have already indicated that you have no interest in racing them against other ARYA club sailors so why bother with registration at all? So there should be no problem. There will always be an opportunity to join in if you have a change of heart in the future.



-- Edited by Straw on Wednesday 31st of August 2011 05:06:13 PM



-- Edited by Straw on Wednesday 31st of August 2011 05:10:09 PM

__________________


Veteran Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 99
Date:



-- Edited by Viking on Friday 30th of December 2011 04:47:25 PM

__________________


Veteran Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 42
Date:

Salutations Bob,
Unfortunately it is probably too late to do a photo essay on the construction of the boat as it is already quite advanced at this stage but I will see what I can do. Actually I possibly can do it because one of the Mini Mariner hulls has the deck off it and the lead out so it will need to basically go through the building process from scratch so anything that I miss out on NZ144 can be included with MM hull 122. Damn , I am a genius!

The EC12.info page has been my bible along with the manual for the EC12 that I bought from Rick West and both have been very informative regarding the building process. When I was up in Sydney sticky beaking at the nationals it was as I said mainly to refine the process. Being the klutz that I am at times I had forgotten to bring a measuring device with me so was only able to do the photo bit and try and sort out those things that I did like from those that I didn't. One of the things that impressed me was (and I may be totally wrong here) was the feel of the paint finish on Peter Morris's boat but to me it felt like it had been graphited. Now the funny thing is I was there on the Saturday and another chap that I know here in Nowra who also has two EC12's was there on the Sunday and he also made the very same comment to someone else that is involved with sailing down here.

I have dropped the boat into the neighbours pool to see how it will float and where I shall put the electronics. One thing that impressed me was that with just the slightest push the boat managed to glide all the way from one end to the other with no appreciable slowing down, amazing what a million pounds of lead will do.

Today I will be dummy rigging the sheet system to make sure I clear all obstacles and remove as much friction as I can.

sailing ever onward, Harry

__________________


Veteran Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 99
Date:

   

 

 

 

 

 

 

 



-- Edited by Viking on Friday 30th of December 2011 04:43:31 PM

__________________


Veteran Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 42
Date:

Hi Bob,

No, I have never met or spoken with Leigh Groves, he has emailed me at times though. It was he that informed me that my boat would not be class legal in Australia, it was on that "other" forum when it existed. I am confused, firstly he tells me that my boat will not be class legal but now asks that I present my NZ hull to him for measurement and may I be presumptuous here and presume that all things being equal that with the stroke of the "magic pen" my boat now becomes legal in Aus.

I am not sure of what my shifts will be when the NSW titles are on and as I had mentioned on that "other" forum due to my shift work arrangements I would possibly never be in a position to attend any major regattas.

Both Tuross and Tabourie are further than what I am able to afford or am prepared to travel on a regular basis but having said that , there is also St Georges Basin Radio Yacht Club and with those chaps I do know that if you don't have a Soling you are told to go away and to not darken their waters again.

Thanks for your encouragement regarding the build, it is coming along nicely at the moment. All the deck beams are glued in as are the stringers and the nose pieces for supporting the arrow shaft. I am now at that point where I need to work out the position for the radio board and the winch and rudder servo in order for the boat to float correctly. Once all that is sorted then I shall rig the sheets to see if there are areas that could cause problems with snagging under the deck. I know most people run their sheets on top of the deck but that offends my eye as I think it looks untidy. So under the deck they shall all be.

Harry

__________________


Veteran Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 99
Date:

 

 

 



-- Edited by Viking on Friday 30th of December 2011 04:39:32 PM

__________________


Senior Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 185
Date:

Harry

I think I am getting more to grips with the small grey areas in the EC12.. Thanks for posting.. Information is Golden & very helpful to the un-initiated.

Your Info has put a small doubt in my argument to retain the older moulds & I thank you for that ..

From reading all of the proposals & looking back at History I think I see the valid reasoning for putting together the New Proposal & the US Mould as perhaps the future..

I can see sense in defuncting the Older Moulds IF (& only IF) they are no longer in production.. That is to say not just having Hulls pulled for mates. They need to be freely available for all to access.  If there are only sales in S/Hand Boats then the moulds are past being used, so the argument could be a little unnecessary.

 

Obviously your experiences are not isolated & for me the reference to a rule so recent as 2008 I would see as being a typical way to adjust rules on the fly without proper consideration to all boats on the water.. Whether that be US NZ or AUS...

How many boats have been manufactured for New Members since 1st Jan 2008?  confuse

Was the 2008 Rule implemented to circumvent future developments & maybe an agenda to disqualify such boats as the NZ Mould & perhaps even the US Mould. In my opinion this would be Class suicide if it was the case.

In One Design my belief is that the greater good needs to be served, with the Future advance & stability being the ultimate goal.

 

Yes I am starting to think maybe the US Mould could be the One Master with some stirct compliance issues to deal with.

The Older Mould if they are to be continued would need to be verified & certified as viable & available Hulls for Public Purchase. Building Hulls for Mates does nothing to increase numbers just a newer hull on the water.

 

The Current Proposal is looking more palatable every day.

 

John

 



-- Edited by waboats on Tuesday 30th of August 2011 05:37:06 PM

__________________


Veteran Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 99
Date:

 

 

 



-- Edited by Viking on Friday 30th of December 2011 04:38:09 PM

__________________


Veteran Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 42
Date:

Hello John,

No, you are not off beam at all, in fact you are one hundred percent correct. Yes, I went to New Zealand for my hull because I couldn't get anyone here to tell me where to get a new one in Australia. I was beginning to suspect that it was a secret society and I had not been yet initiated into it. Again, yes, I had originally intended for it be registered as an Australian boat. Not quite sure how that would have gone seeing it has NZL144 moulded into the hull.

One of the people that told me that my NZ hull is illegal in Aus. is a very senior and from what I read in forums very respected member of the EC12 movement here in Aus. The other person that told me the same thing was someone that was at the nationals recently in Sydney and he mentioned it was something to do with the width of the keel, apparently it is too wide to satisfy the Aus. criteria.

See rule 5.1.13 "The keel section of all hulls moulded after 1st Jan. 2008 shall be of such thickness and profile as to pass the A.R.Y.A. Inc approved keel gauge. The gauge limits the thickness of the keel to 52mm." I fail to see why this rule even exists because if all hulls are manufactured in an association approved mould then where is the problem? As Australia is now in possession of the latest mould from the US then lets also adopt the US rules for the class and stop trying to re-invent the wheel.

__________________


Veteran Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 42
Date:

Bob, thank you for the welcome,

Regarding the lack of assistance or willingness shown to newcomers is something that I come to expect these days, I was at Chipping Norton recently for the nationals to have a look as I had never seen an EC12 actually sailing. I was there for most of Saturday walking around and poking my nose in peoples boats and taking photos trying to formulate a plan on how to best build the NZ boat, you know how that goes, look at at everything and then try to distill the best of what you think you saw. Now during my poking and prodding not one person from the association came up and introduced themselves or inquired of me if I was at all interested in sailing or becoming a member. Much later when I was sitting down did Peter Morris ask me some questions regarding if I was going to register the boats or even race them and perhaps join the owners association, when I said "probably not" he immediately switched off and said "Well you're not much use to us". I was a bit, I admit, non committal to joining the association because who would want a member with a boat that by all accounts will not be able to be registered in Australia.

Rod Liddy expressed amazement when told by me that I had been told that a NZ boat is not legal in Australia. Now I can only assume that the new hull mold that has arrived in Aus is the same shape as the one in NZ and if such is the case then surely that is a move in the right direction.

It's a funny old world, on one hand people here quite happily buy their sails from NZ sail makers but the NZ hulls aren't up to scratch as it were.

Am I on the Central Coast? No, but I suspect that you are, I live in Nowra on the South Coast and as soon as my boat finished I will be sailing it on the pond in the middle of town, soon after that I will have the other two boats finished and myself and two of my friends will be match racing on said pond.

It has become an unfortunate situation for a lot sports and hobbies in trying to boost membership and for model yachting in particular as it has never been a mainstream activity and as new classes are introduced and people scramble to get the latest, older classes languish and sometimes cease to be. I see the Micro Magic is now the ascending star as it seems to tick a lot the boxes of what is considered important these days. Not the least of which is its ability to fit into a small car. Me, I lean more to the RG65 to fulfill that same need. But having said that I very nearly, several years ago, bought one of those huge J class yachts from the US. That dream lasted only as long as it took to realize that I would need a much much larger vehicle than what I have to carry the beast.

__________________


Senior Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 185
Date:

Harry

Forgive me if I am off beam..But I get from your post that you had to approach NZ to obtain a Hull because a new one as not available in OZ.. I assume this was intended to be registered in OZ... Is this one of the current NZ Hulls that comply with the US Mould standard.

What I find difficult to grasp is why your Hull could not be registered in OZ  & grandfarther in if the new proposal passed.. If it is out of one of the latest moulds then there definiately shouldn't be an issue if the proposal passes.  

It's all a bit strange after reading Steve's history on the class & it seems that variations are quite noticable with Pros & Cons in performance.

I guess that your Hull in my opinion should be measured as an EC12 in OZ even today  & let the system decide later if this boat is better or worse than those that exist now,

If It Looks like a Duck, Sounds like a duck, Waddles like a Duck.. The chances are It's a Swan in a Duck Suit ashamed

Strict One Design Classes are great for levelling the playing field but with changes allowed then there needs to be compromise when it comes to sorting the mess out.

Hopefully all will become clearer sooner rather than later..

 

John

 

 

 

 

 



__________________


Veteran Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 99
Date:

 

 

 



-- Edited by Viking on Friday 30th of December 2011 04:36:49 PM

__________________


Veteran Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 42
Date:

Gentlemen, allow me to introduce myself, My name is Harry and like Peter Morris I too only just found this forum. I too am interested in EC12's and in fact have three of them. Two of the boats are by Mini Mariner hulls number 4 and 122. The third hull that I have is one that I brought in from NZ after I contacted Rod Liddy the secretary of the NZ EC12 association, it carries the number NZL144.

Now people have told me that I'm in deep merde because that NZ hull won't pass muster here in Australia and can't be registered as a EC12. Hmmmm, a supposedly one design class that isn't all one design. How can this be?

Having compared the rules between the US and NZ and Aus I find that it is Australia alone that has decided to go their "own" way and thus the NZ boat will be built to the NZ rule. The two mini Mariners will be rebuilt/refurbished to the Australian rules. As an interesting aside I find that the mini mariner hull is about 1.5 inches shorter than the NZ hull which by comparing it to the US building schedule is the correct length.

While I support the concept of an owners association in Australia I would like to see that all EC12's are built to the same rules in all countries so as to avoid comments like which I received regarding my NZ hull about its legalities in Australia. I find it incongruous that all boats from all countries can race against one another in a series, but woe betide the person that dares to bring in a hull from overseas because he couldn't get one in Australia.

Having read in this forum that the NCC is no longer in  that position due to the intransigence of the ARYA further adds to my dilemma regarding the future of the class. As a member of other sailing clubs in bigger boats the clubs levied a fee on all members and said fee was passed on to Yachting Australia, but did we as members of the club ever see any of our money being spent on something that would have benefitted sailing in our local community? No, because all the monies were funneled off to "more deserving" causes than ours. This is exactly what I see is happening with the ARYA and The only way that I see for the EC12 to survive and maybe flourish, is for it to disassociate from the ARYA and be run by the owners association.

Sorry for the rant, especially seeing it's my first post on this forum but I just felt that I needed to get that out in the open.

Harry .



__________________


Veteran Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 99
Date:



-- Edited by Viking on Friday 30th of December 2011 04:35:32 PM

__________________


Senior Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 185
Date:

Viking wrote:

Stay positive John,

                          Only four months to go.

Bob.


Bob

OK

So we have given up on the current Executive doing anything to resolve their silly Policy .. I agree..

 

Flogging a Dead Horse n All...evileye

 

I suppose a further few months will be OK to most, especially when the Final Outcome will meet with Majority Approval.. Agree or Disagree I always fall into line with what the Majority decide.. I see nothing in the EC12 proposal that is Catastrophically Disastrous to the Class..

 

By the way.. I'm now an Official Financial Member of the EC12OA (no boat yet).   

 

 

 



__________________


Veteran Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 99
Date:



-- Edited by Viking on Friday 30th of December 2011 04:34:29 PM

__________________


Senior Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 185
Date:

Viking wrote:

 

News Flash;

 

While no end is in sight,

 

Secretary Dobbie wishes to highlight the ARYA are not opposed to the formation of Class Associations and will continue to expedited the AEC12OA requests.

 

Bob


 

 

Bob

Like I said before we'll get that glimmer,  with the Looking Into it Statements & Get back to you..

You rightly highlighted the Fact that There is NO Commitment Date...

How hard could it be.... Retired & Nothing Else to do, but the many many Volunteer Positions ... 

Remind us all How Long it Has Been So Far... 14 Months.. or More....

Not Good Enough... If they weren't Opposed to Associations then why a Policy that Clearly is outside their Jurisdictional Powers....furious

Mr Dobbie is affraiid to post in the Open as he can then be brought to account...

The Current Rate of Expediation is to continue.. Another 14 Months Perhaps..

How long has the Constitution Issue been on the Agenda.... 3 Years or More... And still being looked into...

I say use the ARYA Constitution Against them & move forward without their involvement. Once constituted then the ARYA have to fall into line. Job Done & Issue Resolved..

Can't see a point is pandering to such organisations that put unnecessary delays & blocks in place, especially when they have no authority.   

I wouldn't put too much faith in the IOM setup.. It's a Member Association yet the members are not permitted to Vote their representative in.

 That's how Mr Dobbie holds power...  And the IOM Association has nothing to do with the States either, nor Clubs. It's down to Individual Members..

 

 So the Election of that NCC is a complete sham... Not a matter for the ARYA, A matter for the Individual Members..

Once again another example of ARYA stepping beyond their Jurisdiction & Mandate...

A Pity Really as I think you will find that the EC12OA will be similarly hamstrung if they permit any ARYA Involvement in how the Association is structured or how the represenatative are elected or how decisions by the members are derived.

 

Correct me if I am wrong but isn't that how some associations have fallen away in the past & how members do not support the election of certain people as their supposed representative & Liason person..

It's Just a Little Boys Club....   

If Mr Dobbie thinks I'm wrong then he can always post a reply with some supporting constitutional evidence.  

 

 

 

 

  

 



-- Edited by waboats on Friday 26th of August 2011 06:45:31 PM



-- Edited by waboats on Friday 26th of August 2011 06:47:32 PM

__________________


Veteran Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 99
Date:

 

 

 

 

 



-- Edited by Viking on Friday 30th of December 2011 04:33:52 PM

__________________


Senior Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 185
Date:

From the General Section in Reply to a post re the Interim Association Policy...

This has far reaching consequences when considering teh Agendas at Play, not least of all the attempts to styme the EC12OA.. 

 

 

waboats wrote:


Now here is the simple & clear irrefutable evidence that the issue (EC12 & other Associations) as you say, should have been sorted 14 months ago.. Possibly even prior to that.

Just have to Read the most recent Certificate of Curreency for insurance (expired 30 June 2011).

Look under Queensland & what do you see....

  • Australian Micro Magic Class Association..

Officially sanctioned & properly constituted under S21 of the ARYA Constitution & the QRYA

 

I'm confused why the EC12 Owners Association & all others are now hamstrung by this ridiculous & poorly drafted Interim Policy from Mr Dobbie.. From what I know Queensland have already acknowledged the EC12OA..

Like I said once before, he really needs to go.. And let others better skilled in such matters clean up the mess...

The unfortunate thing is that the ARYA constitution was written so long ago & with the right intentions.. It did not assume that others would seek to take away the powers from Members to decide their own fate.

What we have constantly with Radio Sailing is a continual grasp for power & position.

Has nothing to do with the Integrity of the Hobby nor the manner with which the Majority of Grass Roots Members would like to be heard & respected.

Clearly there are Agendas at Play & No doubt some would say on both sides.. One Agenda is put in place to override another. Eventually common sense & middle ground is lost in the Battle for Supremecy...

There is no Backbone within the Executive to answer to their flawed Policy Document as clearly they know they do not have the power to determine an Associations right to self determination.

 

Mr Dobbie will stay silent other than a few lines of retort in the next ARYA Censored Publication that is Radio Waves...

 

 

Sorry the file is so small. If you need a full size copy send me an Email & I can Oblige....

 

21. DUTIES AND RESPONSIBILITIES OF STATE COUNCILS

(a) Any Club, Society, Association or other body whose activities are intended to provide facilities for radio yachting may affiliate to the Association through a State Council.

 

Such a body shall be an affiliated Club of the Association.

 

 



__________________


Senior Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 185
Date:

Peter

I am 100% in agreement with your Philosophy on Owners Associations.. Associations in General are always formed with the same ideals.. A Class Association ultimately has the same outcomes as all decisions are made by the Individual Members.

My Understanding is the ARYA is not setup this way & is merely a meeting of State Associations & as such Class, Owner & Member Ideals are usually lost within the Politics.  

I suppose the problem that faces all of the Classes that want to participate in Radio Sailing are hamstrung by the current setup. It comes down to personalities rather than a Class & Member Decision process.

It has almost become a prerequisite to have the ARYA system Written into a club & Association constitution just to be recognised. Which at times can be seen by some as selling your soul to the Devil..   

 

Some hold grave concerns of the Silence from the ARYA & it's lack of openness with the grass roots members. In my view there is a lack of leadership & direction for the future.

I've heard all the ARYA snide comments & read the sly retorts.. What I haven't seen is a proper & open disclosure of what is supposedly so improper about asking valid questions of the Executive.

 

The Ultimate censorship of Mr Dobbie was to shut the ARYA Forum, thinking he could silence any discussion.From the comments I hear from WA he isn't pleased that Don allows us to continue putting the microscope on the ARYA & their lack of proper process.

 

What more other than this Association Policy & the EC12 situation have the ARYA had to deal with.. The unfortunate thing is WA where the majority of the ARYA Exec are controlled have little or NO interest in the EC12  Class.. It matters not to them if the EC12 survives, grows or stagnates.. 

 

No doubt they will say not all issues have been addressed & they will look into things & get back to you.. Standard ARYA practice not limited to EC12..

So how long has it been now.. My guess is Mr Dobbie would have put up another Looking Into It Delay & soon it will be the election of a New Executive so we can't move forward on the EC12 issue, nor any other issue for that matter.. That will be a matter for the New Executive & the process of delay starts all over again..

 

The EC12 is just one association that unfortunately is governed by the Current Association Policy implemented by Mr Dobbie.. Some might suggest it was Implemented purely to stop the evolution of the EC12 Class.

That would be naive as it would have stated this if it were the case. The Policy covers all Classes & simply tries to avoid Owners having any say in the development & future of their class.. The Policy is written to ensure ARYA Control of the members. Members that aren't even permitted to be a member of the ARYA. Sound silly & confusing.. Well it is written that way for a very good reason.

So I suppose the question when it comes to gaining the required 66.6% of Votes (wherever that base is derived from) there needs to be some foundation on which this majority of Voters can agree. Is that the American Mould the One Mould to Rule all Others.. (Lord of the Rings style)

Like in a Referendum the Vote will always come down as NO, mostly due to the anxiety of not knowing the clear future prior to a vote.. Easier to say No & accept what you have ..

Better the Devil You Know than The Devil You Don't..

I wish you luck with the 66.6% of members/owners/voters, as clearly there are people like Mr Dobbie taking everything in yet not prepared to give balance to the discussion..

I do appreciate the Strict One Design concept & think that in the EC12 & other classes this has been allowed to become very flexible. Mostly to encourage Participation, which is some ways can be beneficial.

In saying what is the Priority, I agree..

 

But what are the Agendas at Play...

 

Without a Positive & Definitive YES to the Older Moulds being grandfathered in as well as the Boats, I can only assume that they are intended to be outlawed.

This I can see would be the only sticking point & opposition to a positive outcome. I do hope the opposition to this is low as with only 2 outcomes possible (Unity or Death) then I fear the latter is a distinct possiblity. disbelief

 

 

  

 

 

 

 



-- Edited by waboats on Saturday 20th of August 2011 01:22:27 PM



-- Edited by waboats on Sunday 21st of August 2011 09:36:06 AM



-- Edited by waboats on Sunday 21st of August 2011 09:37:00 AM



-- Edited by waboats on Sunday 21st of August 2011 09:41:18 AM

__________________


Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 17
Date:

John I have been observing your thoughts on matters EC12 and the direction of the new association and the various hypothetical problems you have raised with moulds etc. I thought under the circumstances it would be beneficial to inject a couple of comments here that may have the effect of resolving any perceived future dilemas.

Firstly let me suggest to you that the entire reason for forming an owners associatiopn can literally be seen in its name..........OWNERS ASSOCIATION.......................This means that it is a "one off" entity consisting of the vast bulk of the class owners who dictate and agree through the association's executive and a voting process, all matters relating to their class of yacht. This would include the policing of matters pertaining to the class like rule formation and ammendment, construction control of yachts and the strict observance of maintenance of design purity, liason with model yachting authorities, running of major events etc etc etc.

Control of boat production and mould etc is pretty easy as long as what is being produced fits within the rule base of the day. Fortunately I have been able to ascertain from Leigh Grove that currently within Australia, there exists only two viable moulds for EC12 construction. That I believe coming from Leigh as he has his finger on the pulse I think as a long term stalwart of the class. 

So in short, the OA is a body that is formed by the owners, for the owners. There is no one else as far as we are concerned other than like minded people who are members and share a passion for the particular class of yacht that they sail. There is no prospect of interference from outside sources because we would represent and have all that are in the class. So you can see there is no prospect of any threat to the OA once given its authority other than any trouble that could come from within and that prospect I would suggest is, under normal circumstances and with goodwill prevailing, an exceedingly remote possibility as long as the members are correctly informed and consulted as appropriate.

Having said that I suppose there may be a very few that would not become members for obscure reasons and frankly I would have to say that despite their reasons  for not joining, it would raise some question in my mind of the desirability of having such persons within our midst in any case.

So as you can see if the OA gets off the ground it will only be due to the owners wishing this to happen and at that point all other matters become academic as it will be a case of the owners governing themselves in the affairs of the class that we all share.

This is the prime reason why I believe this move to be so crucial to the future of the EC12 class here in Australia. You know the old addage that says " Unity or Death"!!

Straw

 



__________________


Senior Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 185
Date:

Viking wrote:

 

I find it intriguing that WA members are discussing the fate of EC12s and suggest their comments are nothing more than malicious gossip.


 Bob

 

I think that the members as a whole are interested in what is happening across all classes (Radio Sailing) . Not just the EC12. There are far reaching consequences when Policy is written in such a vague manner. Hidden Agendas ???

If the EC12 is left to flounder without a clear way forward that deals realistically with all concerns then what class is next on the List.

A good few members are Big Boat Sailors in a past life & they remember the way things operated.. On a class by class basis deciding their own fate.

I think when we highlighted the simplistic approach by Mr Dobbie in this Association Policy a can of worms was let loose.

 

All classes somewhere along the line will suffer because of such a policy. If the EC12 survives this current issue who is to say it won't be confronted by a new policy later on that takes back control because somebody outside the class doesn't like what is done, or their grasp of authority is diminished.

For mine I think you are right we all need to move on. But in which direction..

 

I think a clear & open reply on the future use of the Older Moulds is paramount to bringing unity within the class.

In my mind I doubt I could support a Monopoly Mould & discarding all Older Moulds. Who would be to say that a new group decide in a few years that another mould is more appropriate & then bring in another, banning out all before.

I would think some form of a transition & adjustment phase would be appropriate.

 

Cheers

 

John 

 

 

 

 

 

   



-- Edited by waboats on Friday 19th of August 2011 04:23:40 PM



-- Edited by waboats on Friday 19th of August 2011 04:25:32 PM

__________________


Veteran Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 99
Date:

 

 

 

 

 



-- Edited by Viking on Friday 30th of December 2011 04:32:35 PM

__________________


Senior Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 185
Date:

One can but hope that there was open & transparent discussions at the Nationals. Only a small percentage of skippers but one would think they are committed to the class within Australia & maybe will confirm the positive outcomes.

 

All we need now is for Mr Dobbie (he's a member & has posted here) to quell any unrest when it comes to his Association Policy Document & let us all know exactly & clearly Who, What, Why, When & Where this Policy Document applies.

 

Within WA I have heard that the discussions here on the Forum have been suggested & claimed by Mr Dobbbie to be Totally Inaccurate.

 

Therefore the Only Question I would ask is why Mr Dobbie doesn't post a response so that there is Clarity (as he perceives)..

Simple end of debate right there... So why Doesn't Mr Dobbie do the common sense thing...  I'm confused disbelief

 

 I think, we know why & that is simply we are not that far off the mark..

Otherwise there is nothing to hide & there can be no fear in the Truth.

 

Once again what we need from the ARYA & all things Radio Sailing is a completely transparent process.

 

There I go again... Transparency...  Not a Tangled Web

 

Cheers

 

John

 

  



-- Edited by waboats on Friday 19th of August 2011 10:40:08 AM



-- Edited by waboats on Friday 19th of August 2011 03:02:52 PM

__________________


Senior Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 185
Date:

Bob

 

That sounds great.

 

Hearing things face to face is usually a very good way of reducing anxiety.

 

Hopefully the group that attended the Nationals will go back & inform their local counterparts of the way forward.

 

Maybe a synopsis of what was spoken about Pros & Cons would be good.

 

Then at least those that could not attend would be better prepared & have an inclination as to what is happening.

 

Cheers

 

John  



__________________


Senior Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 185
Date:

Bob

Yes, things look like they may be on the Up & starting to find ways forward..

I was especially taken by a Post from Rick West (US EC12's) & a clarification from Straw..

Both make for interesting reading..

http://modelyachtingaustralia.activeboard.com/t44355519/from-the-us-ec12-class/

 

Maybe if you know how or can you ask Don to transfer the Thread into the EC12 area..

The more I read from Peter the more I am convinced he has his finger on the Pulse & has a Passion for seeing the right thing done on behalf of the EC12 Class.

He should be commended for his Efforts & His Endurance.

Never met the man but I can say I see his reasoning & endeavour to be open & honest. 



-- Edited by waboats on Wednesday 10th of August 2011 07:14:38 PM

__________________


Senior Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 185
Date:

Bob

I would suggest before any Voting Process imposed by Mr Dobbie be clarified exactly by the man himself.. In writing is a Must... . That way you meet the criteria he is looking for & from there he loses all his excuses.

I don't own a Boat but in support of the Ideals of the AEC12OA I have sent of my membership application with payment . It should be there shortly.

In time I hope to one day have a Boat over here. Know of anybody with a reasonably priced boat for Sale.. I can pickup next easter on my trip to Qld..

Once the Process & Procedure is known then I suggest a Ballot be arranged ASAP to sort out the small mess.. Not everybody would be happy with the outcome but we all must move forward soometimes...

 

If you are looking at who is entitled to vote I would say first use the Last Register as a guide. If they are certified then that is probably a beginning. From my understanding Owning a Boat is not a given as you need to be part of something before you can have a say.

 

Its like being in Australia & Not Being a Citizen... You can stay but you cant vote until you sign up & commit to the country.. In this case the EC12 Association.. 

 

Are there 2 Associations running or is the Old One defunct & no longer operating ???

 

But as this is an Assoiciation Vote.. Then I think that Members of the Association are the ones that get to Vote.

The Detractors need to get on Board & Join the Association & from There Conquer the Committee from Within... If they have the numbers...

 

Makes things simple really..

   



__________________


Senior Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 185
Date:

Viking wrote:

 

 

The ARYA conducted a process of due diligence to investigate the AEC12OA submission. During the course of this process a number of key stakeholders were contacted and subsequently provided information. This included a number of personnel outside the ARYA committee and outside the AEC12OA membership.

 

Based on the information provided by those contributing to the investigation, the Interim Policy was formulated and issued to take effect from the date shown on the document. Interestingly, the existing Australia IOM COA is exempt from this policy???

 

 

Bob

 


 

 

 

Bob

 

I think that this is an Important thing you mention.

 

The Fact is the Document as it is written by Mr Dobbie cannot & Does Not Exempt the IOM Class Association from this Policy.

The unfortunate thing is Mr Dobbie will attempt to suggest it does.. He is Manifestly Mistaken & to Do So would be an Injustice & Insult to the English Language.

It is more evidence that shows there is a clear lack of Skills & Understanding of Administrative Obligations within the ARYA.

Being a good sailor in the past doesn't make you a good administrator.. Like they say.. Not all Good Players Make Good Coaches.

I think we need to keep on point & show that the IOM as a functioning class is now hamstrung by this policy & as soon as there is a Rule Change (there are many) then the 2/3 majority of all members need to agree to adopt the sanctioned changes. That is a 2/3 of Total Members not those that choose to vote.

 

They would be lucky to get 10% to vote & would fall well under the 66.6% of Total Members in the affirmative needed to pass. They couldn't even make the 2/3 members casting a vote. No Vote Cast is a Vote in the Negative.   

A rediculous situation but one that has the power to show how SILLY the restrictions of this supposed Policy really are.. A Silly Policy formulated by Unskilled People with a vested Interest in avoiding any proper outcomes.

Mark my words there is a hidden agenda here..

 

The desire is so intense teh ARYA woudl rather destroy all Class Associations including the IOM just to say they know what they are doing & they are in charge & Nobody Else.

 

Cheers

 

John

 



-- Edited by waboats on Tuesday 9th of August 2011 06:58:45 PM



-- Edited by waboats on Tuesday 9th of August 2011 07:00:19 PM

__________________
«First  <  1 2 3  >  Last»  | Page of 3  sorted by
 
Quick Reply

Please log in to post quick replies.

Tweet this page Post to Digg Post to Del.icio.us


Create your own FREE Forum
Report Abuse
Powered by ActiveBoard