Personally I don't think it is a price issue, that has things in a twist.
The One thing that always gets in the way of New Ideas.. is PERCEPTION.. There is a doom & gloom perception, then yes I think that this needs sorting out.
I'm on board with the Old Mould Variations & how Boats were constructed. 20+ years later & things will change.
I don't see an issue with allowing the Old Mould to continuie for the very reasons you explain.. However I think this is why the angst is out there.. Who would buy from an Old Mould at the same cost... Not Me that's for sure.. Like everybody we always look for the newest & the best.
So maybe it is more about a commercial objection rather than a practical one.
I would still say get the New Mould certified & into production ASAP.. Anybody new to EC12's & looking for a New Boat will then have the option..
And for the very reasons you list, the chances are the New Mould will be sought out.
John - don't be too concerned that prices will sky rocket - below are our current prices over here for the latest hulls. We are fortunate that our authorised (by the NZEC12OA) builder is a boat builder involved in the class and he does not make any real profit from the hulls/decks supplied.
New Zealand EC-12 Owners Association Inc. Price List as at 01 January 2010
Construction Options
Price (NZ$)
Bare hull
$230.00
GRP Deck
$125.00
Hull & Deck, joined
$490.00
Rudder
$70.00
Supply & Fit Rudder to Yacht
$100.00
Supply & Fit Lead to Yacht
$95.00
Supply & Fit circular screw-down Hatch to Yacht
$80.00
Hull & Deck, joined - with Lead, Rudder & Hatch Fitted
$765.00
Hull & Deck topcoated in a Single Colour
$155.00
When NZ changed first the 95 standard and then to the current mould there was no issue from owners of older boats - yes we have less here - as they are grandfathered within the rule.
Anyone wishing to get a new boat needs to ask the question do I want a hull from a well formed new mould tahts is ture tot he design or do I want an old style hull from a mould that has been around for many years, banged about, fixed up and not true down both sides with different height gunwhales and may of been flopped many times over exageratting the discrepencies?
Either way they will cost the same to produce in materials and effort!
I have a Sorenson hull built Dec 1983 that became NZL1 when Ian Hull-Brown brought to to NZ and from which many flops were made in the heady mid 80's resulting in may variations ont he original in shape.
The major differences between this hull and new ones are:
Narrower Keel
Pinched bow
Lower gunwhales that are uneven in height.
The new mould is a truer reflection on the first boats produced and is truer to the original lines of Charlie Morgan int he early 60's when it was first drawn.
So the end result is the latest mould which is really only an improvement and tidy up to a mould that is true in measurements from the 95 standard and is what should be known as the true EC12 as most of the boats in AUS are infact flopped versions off an original hull that went to AUS with discrepencies between them all.
Having sat under and viewed the original tank test model from whcih all EC12's derive which is in the bar at St Petersburgh Yacht Club, Florida I cna say without doubt our current mould is the closest to original form.
Pics of this original tank test hull. Please feel free to check many other EC12 pics I have at picasaweb.google.com - my user name is ec12nz and the pics are open for public viewing.
I see quite a lot of merit in reinvigorating the class in Australia.. The biggest issue is going to be convincing those that are there at the moment, the valid reasons for the UPdated Mould are sound & will not impact overly on what exists currently.
The issue I think, and I can only guess, is that if the Older Moulds are not to be used then the costs of New Boats could become rather expensive & availablility could be limited.
A Monopoly could start to exist & from there it becomes reliant upon only one production source.
It would be similar to a Manufacturer suddenly deciding to no longer produce a product & everything goes to pot. MM's have just gone through this & some disagreements in the class. After representations with the Manufacturer things changed & some discontinued parts are now back in production.. For How Long, nobody can be sure.
So to quell any unrest or animosity I would see it prudent to be completely open with everybody & provide for a simple answer to the Mould Situation.
If the Moulds were to be discontinued, I would suggest that a phasing out period be established.. Say 5 years or perhaps another 30 boats from each, which in my estimation would be the maximum time a mould could be producing without a great deal of refurbishment.
The Class certainly needs proper management, & it also needs a full understanding by members about what they can expect.
Silence on behalf of the Detractors and/or the Proposers of Change does nothing to find ways forward.
Opposition for the Sake of Opposition is destructive,, Equally Destructive is Change for the Sake of Change..
I think I'm starting to get a feel for maybe why there is a little angst on the whole issue.
I'm happy with the Grand Fathering In of all previous Older boats..
My concern I suppose is whether it is clear to all & sundry on whether the Current Moulds are going to be able to be used in the Future or not..
Yes or No....
To say Yes I don't see an issue or a reason to be disgruntled with the issue of an Updated Mould.. New Owners still get a choice on which Boat they want to sail.
The Only Restriction I could possibly see is if you want to compete on an International Level.
If the Answer is NO & OLD Moulds can no longer produce boats then I can see a reason to ark up & be disgruntled.
There is a clear Distinction in OLd Moulds vs Old Boats in my mind & I think it would help to clarify on both levels where things are proposed & are heading.
I can remember soomething early in the piece from the ARYA Forum but that is now gone, so difficult to quote from.
A compromise I would see is to have the Latest UPdated Mould from the US certified for production of Hulls within Australia. I assume this is a formality given it would comply with the requirements on measurement.
It would also mean another option from which to produce Boats in Australia.
It may ultimately be the only recognised Mould authorised to produce Internationally complient Boats but that isn't such a bad thing.
The end result is just another mould in the system with the choice remaining on where to get a boat.
If the choice is to Sail in International Events , the Options available are Less
So I suppose for clarity sake are the Old Moulds which produce Older Style Boats going to be allowed to continue producing an EC12 in Australia..
From here I think everybody would have a clear mind when it comes to deciding which side of the fence they come down on.
Cheers
John
-- Edited by waboats on Friday 12th of August 2011 05:50:28 PM
-- Edited by waboats on Friday 12th of August 2011 05:51:28 PM
Congratulations Chris, you have a way with words and your post says what most sailors I have spoken to in Australia would like the officials to realise that over 90% of us are out for a fun sail day with like minded souls but unfortunately the loudmouth minority squeal like stuck pigs when decissions go against them like all political correct B/S we have had to put up with over the last 30 yrs. Fair enough it's nice to win a race or hold a position of office but neither are worth the crap that goes on to hold on to the" Title" Donc
HI Rick and others - great to see you weighing my friend.
As 1 of only 4 who have sailed at both Morgan Black Regattas (2 Kiwis and 2 US) it is as Rick posted above - it looks like an EC12, has been measured at some stage in its life as an EC2 , has the sails that belong on an EC12 it is eligible to sail in this event.
Straw and Rick both nail it - any previous built boat is grandfathered into the class history.
What has been seen by me in travelling around NZ, to AUS and to the US with my 95 standard hull built in NZ prior to arrival of the current mould is that it doesn't matter whether the hull is older or newer as at the end of the day 90% or more is the hands of the driver on the little sticks in the hand!
My clunker had minor success in the US, reasonable in AUS and has been a mixed bag here at home and has beaten and been beaten at times by 20 yo "pinched bow" (Sorenson and the like) as well as having been beaten by and beaten the latest variation on the theme. My travels are realistically to enjoy our great beasts of boats and the camaraderie of the class world wide. Rick has shared time at my house here in NZL and I have travelled and been hosted by him and Merilee his wife at their home and vacation boat as well along with another local from here. This is the true camaraderie of these boats at work. The Morgan Black has created a number of close friendships for me personally in 3 countries, here at home, AUS and the USA. I first met Straw in Orlando Airport on the way to Charleston and we have kept in touch since - we again met a few weeks back in Auckland and enjoyed an evening sail on a real boat
Personally I do not believe we will ever achieve a fully acceptable to all countries rule as there are variations in sail plan with US having a B rig placed between the down under AUS and NZL A and B rigs - to simplify the NZ/AUS B rig = the US C rig. The NZL/AUS C rig = the US Storm rig which I understand is a very rare sight over there if ever seen.. In all countries the A rig is the same.
AS rick has said the Morgan Black is an event that does not require sanctions from anyone other than the owners who want to play at the pond with looks like a duck, quacks like duck must be a duck toy! Small requirements such as the boat will belong to its home body and be a registered measured boat are really the main rules.
As a particular movie line said - Build it and they will come!
Lets get on - get the Morgan Black dates booked and join together again in our passion for our toy boats! All we want to do is play - why should some amateur organisation of volunteers not interested in this boat stop us. At the end of the day we are not the America's Cup and there are no sheep stations on the line, we are a group of like minded people wanting to gather for fun.
FUN - the word most forgotten in the politics of sport.
-- Edited by ec12nz on Thursday 11th of August 2011 06:27:26 PM
The US EC12 Class is not a one-design model despite its designation with the AMYA. It is a restricted design in that, all matters of building to detail in specification and materials used are not presented in the class rules. What have been protected has been the hull design and the specifications of the sails. The class rules allow some building options in deck layout and the structure of the rig for the sails and the fittings thereof.
What was moved forward in 2004, because the loss of control in the 95 Hull Standard, was a complete overhaul of a standards program and by adding a certification process for each manufactured hull. This created in fabrication and registration administration a one-design hull. Because the class owns all production moulds that were produced from the Master Hull that was produced from the Master Mould, we have the production of hulls that is as much alike as is possible for a one-design hull. Australia has a mould from our master and from this AUS can produce a Master Hull for the production of moulds for certified hulls that will be recognized in the US and on the international scene if protocols are followed.
Yes, there will be few that will haul crates to their airline for transport to another country for international competition. But in country, all hulls will be as close in fabrication as is possible.
Current international rules for the Morgan Black? There are none. The Morgan Black was born for getting together. We wanted to start and did not want to be burdened with rules. One of our members stated it this way, Lets just get on the plane and work it out when we get there. So, the first event outside Nelson was; If it looks like a 12, it is a 12. How more simple can you get to have fun?
This is how we may like to get together. In moving to international status there is a need to conform to those rules. That too can be a division .
The US EC12 Class has always grandfathered previously accepted hulls authorized by the class in the past that are registered in the class registry. We have today boats with hulls that were fabricated in the 1970s in national competition and doing well.
Further with comments posted here from my initial: While Peter and I are close in our conversations and visions for the EC12 yacht internationally; I cannot sign on with this for the US Class without their voted permission. This will not pass for the full class as class rule. I am interested in a class division that will have permission based on reasonable rules that all in a class can find access if they like. The key to this is that the rules for the boat are not different in country from those that can and will travel. That would be fair.
To have an international class designation in the US, this is required. However, in the mean time, I like the quote above for the first meeting.
There is a handful here in the US that would like to come to Australia to sail and visit your country. I know there are Kiwis that would also. We are waiting for the Notice of Race.
-------------- From Steve's comment, I am assuming that there must have been some sort of incident in 1990 between the USA and Australia.
I don't know what that incident was, but my thought would be, that it was now over 20 years ago, and that the time has now come for all of us to band together in support of this sport!
And knowing Steve, I'm pretty sure he would agree, even if he does does have a long memory!
-- Edited by Admin on Friday 12th of August 2011 01:33:10 AM
It is with some pleasure that i see that Rick West has seen fit to reveal that there is an international interest in what the AEC12OA is trying to establish here in Australia and for those sentiments expressed I thank you Rick.
I thought that it would be appropriate to confirm and expand on some of the points that Rick has raised and also for some clarification for the benefit of those few who are not on the right track with what we have proposed and indeed have never had the correct take on what we are about, as far as our vision for the class in general is concerned.
Right from the outset let me state again loud and clear that all existing registered EC12's within this country are accepted and grandfathered into the pool of boats that we presently have in our country as far as the AEC12OA is concerned. Having said that I think no one can be under any mistaken belief that their boat is somehow under threat from what is proposed under the terms of the submission that was lodged with ARYA last year.
The reason why I came up with the submission was an attempt by me as then NCC, to address the stagnation and chronic lack of activity of the class that was prevailing at the time. Additionally it was abundantly clear to me that if the class was to have any hope of surviving and have any longer term future at all, then it was imperative that we acquire the ability to be able to produce new state of the art EC12 hulls and as there were no viable hull moulds within Australia that I was aware of, it seemed obvious that we arrange to acquire a new mould from the USA where the boat originated from in the first place. This would have the effect of putting Australia on an equal footing with every other country that is sailing EC12's currently. Pretty normal stuff I would have thought?
After achieving what I thought was the overwhelming majority of all EC12 owners to join the new association (and by the act of joining be seen to be giving tacit agreement with all the requests that were contained within the submission document that was subsequently lodged with the ARYA), imagine my complete dumbfoundedness with the revelation that some few EC12 owners had issues with what I had proposed and decided that not only would they not join the new association but indeed set about to subvert what was being attempted to be achieved for the benefit of the class and all the majority of owners!!
As I have indicated in past posts, I know who these very few individuals are and would have very much appreciated them allowing me to share what exactly their prime concerns to be. They must have been strongly held objections as only that would explain the obvious lengths they have been prepared to go to in order to derail the associations' goals. Having said that they were not prepared to pay me at least the courtesy of contacting me to indicate what their problems were with what I had proposed. If they had bothered I believe we would have long since arrived at a consensus and all this inordinate waste of time would have been avoided!
So here we all are with a situation of loggerhead with complete disunity displayed by the few dissenters within the ownership and all brought about by a disgruntled few. The enormity of the selfishness of these people takes my breath away!!
However the AEC12OA has not disappeared and this matter is far from over as far as I am concerned and under all the circumstances I intend to come at this even stronger. We will be contacting all the registered owners shortly and fortunately we now have in hand the complete list of all known owners as supplied to us by Ken Dobbie himself and this contact will be to get the final agreement of the vast majority of owners with the aims of the AEC12OA. Assuming we get the required majority of owners signatures of membership we will immediately request that ARYA respect the wishes of the owners to have the full responsibility for the class transferred to the AEC12OA when we shall at last be in full control of our own affairs. It goes without saying of course that this act of transfer of ownership of the affairs and day to day running of the class here in Australia will be confirmed in writing making it clear to all and sundry that the ARYA as the national authority, recognizes and concedes that the AEC12OA is as far as they are concerned, the legitimate authority henceforth in all matters EC12.
That gesture and nothing else is my single-minded goal and I will not cease until I have carried it through to conclusion or alternatively had it made clear to me that this plan is not acceptable or unwanted as far as the majority of owners are concerned.
Straw
-- Edited by Straw on Wednesday 10th of August 2011 05:16:16 PM
Welcome to the Forum on Radio Sailing in Australia
As you probably have read I don't own an EC12, although I am located very close to where the International Challenge was held during the Americas Cup.
I would thank you for your input. It is good to see that there is an interest in the class from Overseas.
My Understanding is that this is an International Class sailed to certain controls in several countries.. Not International in the usually accepted way but still sailed amongst countries.
I think that I may be a little confused but from what I read there is a Master Mould in the US from which all others are taken. This is to ensure that all boats are as close as possible to the same.
I know over time Moulds can deteriorate & need refurbishment which can mean small differences can occur.
From my reading this deterioration may have happened to the existing moulds in Australia which would mean that they may need to be recertified against the Master Mould. I believe there are several moulds in Australia that have produced a version of the EC12.
I doubt this re-certification against the Master has occurred & maybe a plug has been taken from one & from there small differences may occur.
The reason I ask is that for a One Design Class everything should come from the same place. I think overall the intention of the Aust EC12 is to bring together the Boats so they are where possible as close to the Master Mould as is humanly possible.
In the time it takes to bring the Older Boats in line with the ideals I believe the AEC12 Association are allowing the Older Boats to sail & compete on the same level. Obviously in International Events, such as the one you describe, I would expect that only Boats that are derived from the Master Mould would compete at that level. Exceptions could apply on the day by agreement & prior arrangement.
If the Older Moulds were used then they might not meet the requirement which if it is the case then they may not even comply now. Which is not an issue until they compete internationally. The One Design principle still remains as al the new boats that utilise the Updated Mould will comply to the standards set by the Master.
I've heard lots of rumour but little in the way of confirmation from those against the Updated Mould.. I wont say New as it comes direct from the Master.
My view would be to allow the use of the Older Mould letting people decide which is for them. Yes the risks on competing Internationally are there. Over time Older Boats will deteriorate & given the options available most would decide on the Updated Mould if they wanted to compete internationally.
I suspect the majority really wont be sailing in the US or NZL any time soon.
It would be really good to hear from a few that are against the Updated Mould so that we can all get a better feeling for their desired outcomes. Maybe a few ideas could be put around and solutions found.
Because without compromise & meeting of minds Locally there will be no Positive Outcomes for the Class as a whole. Eventually there could come a time when the EC12 will cease to exist in Australia.
Not something I would like to see.
John
-- Edited by waboats on Wednesday 10th of August 2011 04:01:10 PM
I would like to introduce myself. I am Rick West of San Francisco and Class Secretary of the US EC12 Class since 2004. I have been following conversations here because of my interest in international matters regarding the EC12. I was also party with NZL in creating the Morgan Black tri annual regatta by nations recognizing the EC12. AUS is third in this process and understood it will be delayed.
The starting of this topic is for this interest and not to interject into your issues and matters of organization. I thought I could supply some history from a class that has been around for 40 years.
First, I need to tell you that I am very close to sailing in NZL and have been in their homes and they in mine. I have met Peter Morris in person and have corresponded with him regularly since the Morgan Black in US 2009.
Peter presented his visions to me and some of my staff a move to resurrect the EC12 in Australia and to move further in establishing the class internationally. Following, I advised him he needed the one design hull mould from the US. This is the finest protected EC12 mould in the world. Peter and NZL have seen the hulls produced from this mould and agree.
Peter was advised by me that to receive a mould from our master mould, he was to use it for the AUS EC12 Class for a one design hull in the Australia and beyond into international status. That was the deal.
He has the mould in a crate in country and will not use it based on our agreement because of restrictions by the ARYA to the class. To be fair and open, that is what I am hearing. Nonetheless, Peter is being honorable with us. We have no control in your country on this matter but the honor agreed.
The US EC12 Class has contributed to the cost of the mould you have in hand. This has been done for a class reason and the vision. I am open here for your comments and questions.
