model yachting Australia - including d'12metre radio yacht forums

The Morgan Black has previously been raised and mentioned by Straw and others from OZ.

Some history on the event for you all. please excuse the novel below but it may clarify some points raised.

The first Morgan Black Regatta was held in 2006 in New Zealand and was organised by the crew mainly in Nelson near where it was held. Skippers attended from NZ, AUS, USA and UK.

As part of the regatta a discussion was held by all to loosely 'formalise" the event in that it was to be held 3 yearly (or close) and to be rotated around host countries who have fleets of EC12's and were willing to host the event. The main idea to be based upon participation, good sportmanship, alot of fun and to allow any EC12 that was registered with its home authority to be eligible. Note the last sentence.

As always - put 2 yachts on a start line and it is full on racing as always.

The regatta name was created here in NZ from the names of Charlie Morgan, legendary 12M designer and Buddy Black, a friend of Charlie who got hold of a 12M tank test model from the early 60's and created the first EC12M Model Yacht in the early 70's. This original tank test model still exists and hangs above the bar at the St Petersburgh Yacht Club in Florida which I visited in 2009 after the 2nd Morgan Black Regatta hosted by the USA in Charleston, South Carolina. Also at this event was Peter Morris from AUS.

There are only 4 people who have sailed at both Morgan Blacks to date, myself, Brian Hogg (NZL) Rick West (USA) Jack Wubbe (USA).

The term -Invitational - is used to describe that all who sail the EC12 are invited to participate - not just a select few. The way it has worked the 2 times so far is - invites to all non host country sailors is opened up with a closing date nominated well priro to the event. Once this date arrives the lcoals are then invited to register to participate and fill remaining slots - last 2 events capped at 36 to allow the long distance traveller sto egt in maximum racing with 2 fleets - nothing worse than 3-4 fleest adn 1-2 races a day completed liek is een at IOM Worlds where a number I know have attended and won;t agina as the expense of traveling along way for less tahn 10 races in a 5 day regatta is a waste of time.

In the event of oversubsciption of locals a ballot could be used to allow all an equal chance of competeing rather than the percieved "best"

As part of my ongoing friendship with Rick West who I first met a number of years prior to the first MB we keep in regular contact and share information on goings on and developments. Since 2009 Peter has also been part of our communications and discussions around a common theme - that is to slowly align the 3 major players in the EC12 world - NZ, AUS and USA. As the boat is originally from the US my personal view is that NZ and AUS should actually be re-aligning with the US as the boats originated there and progressed to AUS and then onto NZ with a Lakesedge Hull in late 1983 which I own nowadays.

As was prevalent nearly 40 years ago molds were flopped and re-flopped off hulls creating a bastardised set of molds in AUS and NZ. Some of these molds still exist in AUS and very far removed from the actual original as to almost be a different boat in that they are skinnier and shorter by up to 10mm. NZ followed a slightly different path 10 years ago and adopted what was known as the 95 standard hull from the US which was closer to the original. When the USA again re-developed the mold to the current one which is true to the original shape NZ again upgraded the mold. This is the same as what peter has wrapped up and ready to go in AUS now.

What seems prevalent in all the forums and alot of the bitching that seems to of gone on regarding development of the AEC12OA has been from the angle of denial and lack of interest in returning to the true shape and original form of the EC12 with cries of "my old boat will be no good", "it will be expensive" "why do we have to have an OA?" and many more.

To answer these 3 points above,

1, rubbish - I have witnessed many races between "old" and "new" hulls - 10% hull, 90% skipper is the true perfomance. Ask the guys at the 2007 AUS nationals in Brisbane that I attended with my 95 standard hull - some wanted our kiwi hulls excluded because we were supposedly faster and had better performing hulls that would blitz the aussie fleet - didn't happen folk. Likewise when Peter took his very old hull to the MB in 2009 - was by no means the slow boat there. I simply ask the question now - would you want to purchase a new hull from an untrue, flopped out of shape 30+ year old amatuer made mold or from the latest true form that has been professionly made and the hull will be the same price? Simple really.

2 Expensive - had a look at IOM;s lately!!!! Here in NZ a NEW EC12 hull is only $250 - compare to newest IOM's at $2,000 + for a hull only. My knowledge is that it will not be much different in AUS for a new hull either so that argument also sunk.

3, OA - control of the class - what better way to keep control of a one design hull shape. Again as example our NZ OA owns the mold so therefore controls the class. Any changes to class rules are by democratic vote only. US has much better organisation with the AMYA compared to AUS or NZ national bodies and is therefore run by the Class Secretary - Rick West. Peter has only tried with others to create the OA to sort the control of the class management and ownership of molds in their true form and protects your new boats construction standard. All old boats in NZ are automatically grandfathered and eligible for competion. Same as proposed in AUS so no real issue.

Yes Peter (Straw) may come across abrupt and dictatorial at times (and yes I consider myself a friend of Peter) with information not always supposedly forthcoming to all and sundry, I do honestly believe that his approach to wresting the class away from the ARYA is in the best interest of the EC12 to continue to grow and move down the track of gaining true international status. Whilst not all agree with his approach and public personna I do truely believe that long term just let him and his support team get the structure in place and then if the need is felt use the democratic process to continue

Hopefully this has filled in some blanks for the readers.

DISCLAIMER.

I am not part of the NZEC12OA Executive but have been in the past.

I do keep in personal contact with US Class Secretary Rick West and am at times privy to some information not public.

I do have personal contact with Peter Morris but do not necessarily support all views communicated. I will continue to consider Peter a friend and look forward to again sailing against him in the future.

A couple of relevant questions there Taz but depending on who's point of view you are seeking you will find that you will get many and varied answers.

Rick West, the secretary of the US EC12 association says it's a Friendly get together of like minded and spirited souls. All that seems to imply that that is exactly what it is, a "friendly" and "social" event with a competitive element in it.

On the other hand, the way Mr. Morris describes it, it is an event run by his association, "The Australian EC12 Owners Association" and only elegible members of his association are invited or allowed to participate.

Why are you surprised it came from the US? The EC12 is after all an American boat and the name "Morgan Black" comes from the two people that had more to do with the design and devleopment of the boat than anyone else. Although maybe I can see your confusion because here in Aus for some inexplicable reason here they insist on calling the boat "The Australian EC12" rather than just an EC12.

Regarding costs and insurance I can't answer those as I am not a member of anything and till the powers to be get their crap in a pile I guess those questions will have to wait a while longer.

Harry 

Well it looks like I have been castigated for asking a question on the running of an event & then publishing the response.

Surely it is better to know when things are happening so Plans can be made for Travel & Accommodation etc.

Do we all have to ask individually..

Now it seems ARYA Secretary has reason to ARC UP... Not sure how that would be possible.. Unless they wants to ARC UP over any triviality.  If that were the case then the EC12 proposal was doomed before it got off the ground...

And here we were talking about an event that isn't under ARYA authority & is merely a social style event at present...

Given the strong Rhetoric & Pernicious content of some replies I would see that such actions by ARYA would be merely seen as inconsequential in the scheme of things, similarly to discussions on old moulds etc..

That aside I asked a public question & perhaps a public response was more appropriate..

Like I have said not having an avenue to discuss issues (regardless of class) only brings with it negative opportunity, confusion & unrest. ARYA has found this to be true & great factor in decisions by some not to return for another term of office. I would guess there are regrets in closing the ARYA Forum albeit the Insurance Coverage & Indemnity Issue remain unresolved & hidden from the knowledge of members.

Lets hope no future OA's (EC12's included) follow the same Management Style path. It is near on impossible to serve TWO Masters... .  

-- Edited by waboats on Monday 19th of September 2011 07:50:08 PM

-- Edited by waboats on Monday 19th of September 2011 07:53:56 PM

Back on Track

So can anbody put a date on when this event is likely to happen?

What arrangements have been made & if this Forum is no longer to be used for passing around information where else can we interested Folk find out about upcoming events.

Will the AEC12OA setup its' own forum or Information Website to get the messages out there?

The ARYA website is pretty lax in putting out any useful Promotional Information..

Straw, (Peter?),

I beg of you, not to forsake these disciussions.

I am eaqually sure that no one has ever intended to make, consciously, any personal criticisms of you, for god knows, you have been prepared to put yourself out there when nobody else could, or would. But the EC12 community needs you.

I can understand what you must feel, but I also know what it feels like from the other side. My frustrations go back now some 10-15 years when I first acquired an EC12. It was only after acquiring it and then trying to get support and information from the ARYA that things went pear shaped. 

I was completely new to this sport, but I knew I loved the shape of the EC12. And after a huge amount of analysis on my part, I decided that the EC12 was what I wanted. But that was when my troubles started. And that's when I lost respect for the committee members of the ARYA. And to add insult to injury, I wanted a NEW EC12 hull. But that was not possible, because the ARYA had not formulated any rules for its construction, and so I can understand no manufacturer wanting to make molds.

I will never, ever, forgive the committee members of the ARYA for this. By the time they made any rules, it was another 10 years later. This was, and is, absolutely unforgiveable! I ended up buying a used version, that leaked so badly, I was put off the EC12, but by then my passion had been confirmed as wanting a 12-metre boat.

From there I went to the Nautic12, of which I bought 2 boats, and then an A2 which is now my pride and joy.

But I digress!

The EC12 Class needs people who know what's happening, and who have the courage to stand up to the senile gentlemen who inhabit the ARYA's holy walls. But whose time has come to depart! Those whose mental structure is still set in the 1920's, those who cannot come to terms with the needs of modern yachtsmen and what it needs to promote this sport in an age of computer games!

The people of the AMRYA were able to make decicisions. The New Zealanders were able to make decisions. But the good old, and I stress the word OLD, members of the ARYA were not, after deliberating for a period in excess of 10 years still unable to formulate a set of EC12 rules! The mind boggles that they were allowed to get away with this!!! 

But that was then. We now need to get the EC12 Class back on track. I personally would like to take up the cudgel, and address the ARYA committee directly about their incompetence, but I have neither the connections, nor the financial resources to do this.

Again Straw, I implore you, please do not forsake this class. It, we, need you!

Regards, Don

John, because your post was reasonable and well thought through, I choose to respond to this for the last time. All of what you say makes perfect sense and yes it is true that I have my blood,sweat and tears involved in this effort. It appears that you appreciate that fact. I am sorry about Bob and assure you that there was no disrespect on my part towards him in any part of how I responded to his queries. However what is done is done now and I am sure Bob will not miss my involvement here going forward.

Do not mistake what I said about the MB being open only to OA members. That is preceisely what I meant. The MB event is a completely separate event from any official Australian event. The various state and national titles are completely separate under the auspices of the various state and national authorities.

I could simply stop it overnight if I was so minded and the only reason that anyone is able to contemplate competing in it is due to the effort that I have put in to this class. Don't get me wrong about this as it is not a personal horn blowing exercise. It is a simple statement of fact. Does anyone honestly believe we would be anywhere close to where we are now if I had not chosen to go down this path? That might put some noses out of joint I know, but so what? We are at an all or nothing stage now anyway and any dribbling and mewling lamentations by some about the way it once was are now irrelevant. This class requires a whole new broom through it and if there are some that are not interested in getting with the program then so be it and I wash my hands of them. 

The MB however is an "in house" event that will be staged and run by the AEC12OA and it is my preference that it not be 'bludged" on by people who are not prepared to go out of their way and support the effort by joining the OA. The only reason that it is on the agenda here at all is due to my personal overture to the other nations and just prior to this it looked likely to detour us and head for the UK because of the perceived BS that has gone on here for years. Gesst is right when he says that he marvels in the way that EC12 people behave.

He is right to sit it out on the side lines with his boats, but I can say this, that if and when he does finally decide that he needs to embrace some formality and officialdom if you will, he will find all the help and assistance that he may require in the OA. He descibes the OA as an autocracy and to an extent he is right.  I do not resile from that accusation as I would suggest that anything else such as how the affairs of the EC12 class have gone in the past, simply have failed and it is time for a radical change. Is there anyone who can say different??

After tonight, I would have to say that I am a heartbeat away from chucking in the towel with all of this. I am fed up of trying to do what I can to help this class pull itself up by the boot straps and all I get is kicked in the teeth for my trouble! Is there anyone out there who can honestly say that things are fine and dandy in the EC12 world at present? Heck, NSW can't even stage a state title this year (cancelled through lack of interest I understand)!! Maybe the owner of the Lakesedge mould has the magic prescription. Maybe he or someone like him can step up to the plate and tell us all why the phone orders for new 12's are running hot and Daniel Weisman is being run off his feet with all the new registration numbers that he is issuing??? Yeah sure!! 

I believe however that the majority do in fact see the writing on the wall and will in fact join the association for all the valid reasons that I have envisioned. I refuse to be dictated to by small mindedness and fortunately I do not see a lot of that around the ranks these days.

I have stated before and it bears restating, that if you are put in the position of having to lead, then bloody well LEAD!!! I will either be proved right or wrong but I personally belive that I am on the right path.

Forgive the rant but there is only so much that one man can cop and I am fed up copping it! If someone out there can do it better or has a superior prescription then say so now and if necessary organize for different people to run the show. Right about now I don't think I would even care!

This is definitely the last you will hear from me on here. If anyone wants to talk to me, you know where to find me!

Straw wrote:

---

As long as our class remains informal in its nature with the unorganized "basket case" conditions that prevail here in Australia  presently together with the lack of unification on a wider international level, then I would have to say that it will remain an event that is the personal plaything of just 3 EC12 owner associations in the US, NZ and now AUS (due to the formation of the AEC12OA no matter what % of boat owners agreed to join).

Be under no allusions that from an AEC12OA perspective, that we would not be likely to countenance non member participation in an event that would not have happened without the involvement and creation of our OA. This is what I have been "banging on" about for "2 bloody years" and trying to get through people's heads about the marvellous things that can happen if we ever collectively decided to join forces in a common entity and start persuing positive things rather than indulging in petty politics and personal character assasination etc!

Arguing and being concerned about inconsequential issues like backyard moulds and amateur builder's rights etc seem to me to be pretty low on the priority list when we find ouselves dealing with much larger issues like the survival of the class itself. I would suggest to you that nothing is more important than that and the type of inordinate importance placed on the protection of some of this "old stuff" that the class has been tearing itself apart over for bloody decades seems mute indeed!!!

You will forgive me for just a tad of self indulgence here when I say that unles yours truly had come up with this "cunning plan", we probably wouldn't be here debating any of these issues. Guys like yourself, WA Boats, Gestt et al would be discussing issues other than EC12 matters I would warrant. So because of me and the tower of strength assist I have received from fellows like Dave Hill  Clyde Rogers and people such as your good self for instance, we would not be here even having this discussion!

 

 

---

Peter

 I had intended to stay out of this one, as clearly I am no authority on the EC12.

 All of my inputs have been with a genuine support or in some ways spitballing ideas.. Good & Bad... Some probably a little frustrating to yourself given your huge personal & emotional investment in the Class.

This aside I would normally only contribute where there is the opportunity to find balance to any discussion. Maybe air concerns that others might feel reluctant to express.

Modern society is such that we get caught up in this new flashy technology without proper understanding its use.

Just try to live without your mobile & Email for a month & you will understand that these forms of communication, including Forums are almost a necessity in getting your message across.

One concern I did have was the use of the words of "Not Likely to Countenance Participation of Non-Members"...

I think that most Associations have to live with the fact taht visitors will ultimately have to be allowed to participate.. This is what allows Overseas Skippers to attend & to disallow Local Skippers could be detrimental to the cause.. I know we would liek everybody to join but you can't force them.. Yep some will always take advantage of the rewards achieved by the members along the difficult path to success.     

I took this statement as mere frustration & perhaps not couched in a manner that was reflective of the intention. 

I'm with you on the Frustrations of dealing with ARYA & some of the surrounding issues & I would say that collectively as a Member of Radio Sailing that if all skippers banded together , regardless of Class, that we would achieve all of your aims and possibly many more besides...

Not posting is not a good idea in my opinion as then the detractors have won their case. They can sit back on the fence & always claim the information wasn't available to make a valid comparison. Don't act to quickly or harshly.. Some may say the NCC Resignation was a similar knee-jerk reaction.  

Not all will agree with your vision no matter how much you try, all you can do is put the message out there & hopefully more will agree than not.

I think Bob asked a few small questions for clarification & maybe the response was a little outside the square. I don't think either had malice but without the benefit of facial expression & body language things can get misinterpreted.

Us humans are visual creatures & this computer gizmo is not the best form of communication..

Great reply Peter,

                        You have totally misinterpreted my questions as having some hidden agenda. I find it disturbing that a financial member of the AEC12OA cannot ask open and valid questions and receive an equivalent open and honest reply without resorting to public personal attacks.

                        Perhaps Im not the one with a hidden agenda.

Thanks John,

                   It would appear the Morgan Black competition will be held regardless of decision pending from the ARYA.

          It would be informative (for OA members) to know what countries have been invited, hosting club location, dates, eligability for Australia owners, what assistance is required etc. etc.

         If anyone has copies of OA member information relating to the AEC12OA process I would appreciate your assistance.  

Yes, I understand about this process that has been ongoing. I was speaking about the Mogan Black. I do not undstand what that has to do with seven nations being invited by a host in QLD for friendship and sailing? What am I missing?

What is there to negotiate?