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Post Info TOPIC: Morgan Black – Invitational


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RE: Morgan Black – Invitational


taz666 wrote:

Being a Novice

So what does it all mean & who is Running the Show?

Is this open to everybody?

What costs are involved?

Do you need special Insurance? (I hear you always need Special Insurance for these things. Not sure why? They are only Little Toys).

What more information is available?

Surprised this came from USA & not Australia..  Maybe it is Bogus or the USA are running things, like everything else in this world.

Back to cleaning the King Air for a joy ride to Lake Eyre. New Year in the Outback.

 

 


 So Back to the original questions I asked .. Simple as they are.

 

Harry thank you for your efforts. It must be frustrating to you to want to participate but being blocked by such marrow minded people.

 

If it is an Invitational do you need an Official Invite?

A private Function then I suppoe the Standard Insurance will not cover things & Special Policies may be required. I know our Local Residents Group had to get a $600 policy to hold an Easter Egg Hunt at my local park.

What do people need to Join if they want to attend?

 

What hope is there when a Spokesperson does not Speak & is so Secretive. Obviously something to hide.

Why Else?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 



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taz666 wrote:

My jibe about coming from the USA was more to ask why Mr Straw hasn't told anybody here in Australia first.  Have to say I'm not a Fan.

 

 


 

 

My observation is that Australia doesn't seem to have any position on this event.

Now we have New Zealand making lots of assumptions about this.

 

I asked a few simpel questions .. How about a few simple answers   

 

 

And taking Mr Straw's tact.. Is He & EC12NZ one & the same .. They seem to have the same longwinded & confrontational style that put you to sleep before you get to an answer. By then the answer & the question are well past having any sensibility.

 

Is this the Managment that wants ne wpeople to increase their numbers.. Good Luck with that one..

 

 



-- Edited by taz666 on Saturday 31st of December 2011 02:51:44 PM

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The Morgan Black has previously been raised and mentioned by Straw and others from OZ.

Some history on the event for you all. please excuse the novel below but it may clarify some points raised.

The first Morgan Black Regatta was held in 2006 in New Zealand and was organised by the crew mainly in Nelson near where it was held. Skippers attended from NZ, AUS, USA and UK.

As part of the regatta a discussion was held by all to loosely 'formalise" the event in that it was to be held 3 yearly (or close) and to be rotated around host countries who have fleets of EC12's and were willing to host the event. The main idea to be based upon participation, good sportmanship, alot of fun and to allow any EC12 that was registered with its home authority to be eligible. Note the last sentence.

As always - put 2 yachts on a start line and it is full on racing as always.

The regatta name was created here in NZ from the names of Charlie Morgan, legendary 12M designer and Buddy Black, a friend of Charlie who got hold of a 12M tank test model from the early 60's and created the first EC12M Model Yacht in the early 70's. This original tank test model still exists and hangs above the bar at the St Petersburgh Yacht Club in Florida which I visited in 2009 after the 2nd Morgan Black Regatta hosted by the USA in Charleston, South Carolina. Also at this event was Peter Morris from AUS.

There are only 4 people who have sailed at both Morgan Blacks to date, myself, Brian Hogg (NZL) Rick West (USA) Jack Wubbe (USA).

The term -Invitational - is used to describe that all who sail the EC12 are invited to participate - not just a select few. The way it has worked the 2 times so far is - invites to all non host country sailors is opened up with a closing date nominated well priro to the event. Once this date arrives the lcoals are then invited to register to participate and fill remaining slots - last 2 events capped at 36 to allow the long distance traveller sto egt in maximum racing with 2 fleets - nothing worse than 3-4 fleest adn 1-2 races a day completed liek is een at IOM Worlds where a number I know have attended and won;t agina as the expense of traveling along way for less tahn 10 races in a 5 day regatta is a waste of time.

In the event of oversubsciption of locals a ballot could be used to allow all an equal chance of competeing rather than the percieved "best"

As part of my ongoing friendship with Rick West who I first met a number of years prior to the first MB we keep in regular contact and share information on goings on and developments. Since 2009 Peter has also been part of our communications and discussions around a common theme - that is to slowly align the 3 major players in the EC12 world - NZ, AUS and USA. As the boat is originally from the US my personal view is that NZ and AUS should actually be re-aligning with the US as the boats originated there and progressed to AUS and then onto NZ with a Lakesedge Hull in late 1983 which I own nowadays.

As was prevalent nearly 40 years ago molds were flopped and re-flopped off hulls creating a bastardised set of molds in AUS and NZ. Some of these molds still exist in AUS and very far removed from the actual original as to almost be a different boat in that they are skinnier and shorter by up to 10mm. NZ followed a slightly different path 10 years ago and adopted what was known as the 95 standard hull from the US which was closer to the original. When the USA again re-developed the mold to the current one which is true to the original shape NZ again upgraded the mold. This is the same as what peter has wrapped up and ready to go in AUS now.

What seems prevalent in all the forums and alot of the bitching that seems to of gone on regarding development of the AEC12OA has been from the angle of denial and lack of interest in returning to the true shape and original form of the EC12 with cries of "my old boat will be no good", "it will be expensive" "why do we have to have an OA?" and many more.

To answer these 3 points above,

1, rubbish - I have witnessed many races between "old" and "new" hulls - 10% hull, 90% skipper is the true perfomance. Ask the guys at the 2007 AUS nationals in Brisbane that I attended with my 95 standard hull - some wanted our kiwi hulls excluded because we were supposedly faster and had better performing hulls that would blitz the aussie fleet - didn't happen folk. Likewise when Peter took his very old hull to the MB in 2009 - was by no means the slow boat there. I simply ask the question now - would you want to purchase a new hull from an untrue, flopped out of shape 30+ year old amatuer made mold or from the latest true form that has been professionly made and the hull will be the same price? Simple really.

2 Expensive - had a look at IOM;s lately!!!! Here in NZ a NEW EC12 hull is only $250 - compare to newest IOM's at $2,000 + for a hull only. My knowledge is that it will not be much different in AUS for a new hull either so that argument also sunk.

3, OA - control of the class - what better way to keep control of a one design hull shape. Again as example our NZ OA owns the mold so therefore controls the class. Any changes to class rules are by democratic vote only. US has much better organisation with the AMYA compared to AUS or NZ national bodies and is therefore run by the Class Secretary - Rick West. Peter has only tried with others to create the OA to sort the control of the class management and ownership of molds in their true form and protects your new boats construction standard. All old boats in NZ are automatically grandfathered and eligible for competion. Same as proposed in AUS so no real issue.

Yes Peter (Straw) may come across abrupt and dictatorial at times (and yes I consider myself a friend of Peter) with information not always supposedly forthcoming to all and sundry, I do honestly believe that his approach to wresting the class away from the ARYA is in the best interest of the EC12 to continue to grow and move down the track of gaining true international status. Whilst not all agree with his approach and public personna I do truely believe that long term just let him and his support team get the structure in place and then if the need is felt use the democratic process to continue

Hopefully this has filled in some blanks for the readers.

 

DISCLAIMER.

I am not part of the NZEC12OA Executive but have been in the past.

I do keep in personal contact with US Class Secretary Rick West and am at times privy to some information not public.

I do have personal contact with Peter Morris but do not necessarily support all views communicated. I will continue to consider Peter a friend and look forward to again sailing against him in the future.



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Harry

I hope it is ok to use your name... Don't mean to offend if not ... Thank you for your reply, it is very much appreciated. 

I'm new to all of this & looking to get my Father back into playing with these Boats.. I think they are toys, but since pulling out his old boat he hasn't stopped talking about them. I think he would like to start something again but with his grandkids in tow. I have been told these EC12's are like gold if you can find one.

We are originally from the US & have been in Australia since the late 70's so I think we are Ozzie by now..  Dad still has a little of his ascent but is very hard to pick.

It sounds like & I make judgement of what I have read here, that there is a great divide between those that enjoy a simple days sailing & others who have Admin & Rules as their main aim.

Like Old Men they find it very hard to retire & accept they are no longer the boss. For us I think we need something a little less Bull at a Gate & confrontational.  

Mr Straw's approach leaves me cold & I would shy away from anything he is involved in. I assume he is Mr Morris. No doubt he will provide a reply later & hopefully some answers to my questions. I do hope he doesn't get annoyed as he has in the past.

My jibe about coming from the USA was more to ask why Mr Straw hasn't told anybody here in Australia first.  Have to say I'm not a Fan.

 

Robyn

 

 

 

 



-- Edited by taz666 on Friday 30th of December 2011 08:27:44 PM

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A couple of relevant questions there Taz but depending on who's point of view you are seeking you will find that you will get many and varied answers.

Rick West, the secretary of the US EC12 association says it's a Friendly get together of like minded and spirited souls. All that seems to imply that that is exactly what it is, a "friendly" and "social" event with a competitive element in it.

On the other hand, the way Mr. Morris describes it, it is an event run by his association, "The Australian EC12 Owners Association" and only elegible members of his association are invited or allowed to participate.

Why are you surprised it came from the US? The EC12 is after all an American boat and the name "Morgan Black" comes from the two people that had more to do with the design and devleopment of the boat than anyone else. Although maybe I can see your confusion because here in Aus for some inexplicable reason here they insist on calling the boat "The Australian EC12" rather than just an EC12.

Regarding costs and insurance I can't answer those as I am not a member of anything and till the powers to be get their crap in a pile I guess those questions will have to wait a while longer.

Harry 



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Being a Novice

So what does it all mean & who is Running the Show?

Is this open to everybody?

What costs are involved?

Do you need special Insurance? (I hear you always need Special Insurance for these things. Not sure why? They are only Little Toys).

What more information is available?

Surprised this came from USA & not Australia..  Maybe it is Bogus or the USA are running things, like everything else in this world.

Back to cleaning the King Air for a joy ride to Lake Eyre. New Year in the Outback.

 

 



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I'm not sure what any of this means and I'm not sure that I care any more. My interest has waned to the point where I now have three EC12's gathering dust on shelf up high, they may one day again get tinkered with but I fear not in the foreseeable future. So meanwhile I'm off to go and sail big boats again with big people and big peoples agendas.

Harry

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The international Morgan-Black Regatta will be held in Australia in February of 2013. The NOR will be out this coming February. It is likely five countries will attend the one week affair and the USA team could be four or more.

 

The location will be the Sun Coast community and resort area just north of Brisbane in Queensland. I am the contact for the USA group.
  Organizers should take note for advance planning. 2013 listings have begun with the Morgan-Black.

 

Reference: http://www.ec12.org//index.htm

EC12 Newsletter December 29, 2011 Vol 9. Issue 18.



-- Edited by Viking on Friday 30th of December 2011 02:07:02 PM

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Well it looks like I have been castigated for asking a question on the running of an event & then publishing the response. confuse

 

Surely it is better to know when things are happening so Plans can be made for Travel & Accommodation etc.

 

Do we all have to ask individually.. ashamed

 

Now it seems ARYA Secretary has reason to ARC UP... Not sure how that would be possible.. Unless they wants to ARC UP over any triviality.  If that were the case then the EC12 proposal was doomed before it got off the ground...

 

And here we were talking about an event that isn't under ARYA authority & is merely a social style event at present...

 

Given the strong Rhetoric & Pernicious content of some replies I would see that such actions by ARYA would be merely seen as inconsequential in the scheme of things, similarly to discussions on old moulds etc.. aww

 

That aside I asked a public question & perhaps a public response was more appropriate..

 

Like I have said not having an avenue to discuss issues (regardless of class) only brings with it negative opportunity, confusion & unrest. ARYA has found this to be true & great factor in decisions by some not to return for another term of office. I would guess there are regrets in closing the ARYA Forum albeit the Insurance Coverage & Indemnity Issue remain unresolved & hidden from the knowledge of members.

 

Lets hope no future OA's (EC12's included) follow the same Management Style path. It is near on impossible to serve TWO Masters... .   no

 



-- Edited by waboats on Monday 19th of September 2011 07:50:08 PM



-- Edited by waboats on Monday 19th of September 2011 07:53:56 PM



-- Edited by waboats on Monday 19th of September 2011 08:02:45 PM

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I'm one for being open on all these matters. I think I got a reply to my question.

 

Personally I think a public response was more relevant than a PM, So in view of others possibly asking the same question, it is perhaps important to post the reply & my response here.

 

Straw wrote:


John, you should not be so mischievious. You know that you can contact any of us in the OA to keep yourself abreast of developments for the upcoming MB. It is extremely early days yet but I can tell you that we are aiming at one of the weeks in February 2013. Information and updates will be forthcoming to all members of the OA as it comes to hand.

We shall be setting up a website hopefully once we get over this bloody ARYA "C%$&" and become the sole authority for matters EC12. You know the rest...................

Regards

Peter


 

 

Peter

 

Not being mischievious, merely asking a question in the open & hopefully putting the Thread back on track & at the same time pyutting an end to the sniping.

 

Welcome back to the Forum... blankstare

 

John



-- Edited by waboats on Sunday 18th of September 2011 06:33:56 PM



-- Edited by waboats on Sunday 18th of September 2011 06:34:29 PM

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Back on Track

So can anbody put a date on when this event is likely to happen?

 

What arrangements have been made & if this Forum is no longer to be used for passing around information where else can we interested Folk find out about upcoming events.

Will the AEC12OA setup its' own forum or Information Website to get the messages out there?

The ARYA website is pretty lax in putting out any useful Promotional Information.. disbelief


 



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Hello Don,

Like you, I too love the shape of the EC12 and coupled with the fact that it will float in almost no water makes it ideal for where I live, as trying to get water deep enough to float my Marblehead or One Meter boat is getting harder and harder. I was sick of being stonewalled by the secret society of the EC community in my endeavours to get a new hull in this country that I approached the NZ EC12 association and ended up by importing a hull from NZ.

On announcing receival of this hull I was immediately informed on that other "forum" by private message that my NZ hull was not legal in Aus and wouldn't pass muster. How ironic now that the new hull mould in Aus is from the same master plug as my NZ hull.

While I have never had any dealings with ARYA I am certainly no friend of YA due to procrastinations and money leeching, as ARYA is part of YA I tend to think that they are all tarred with the same brush. Admittedly as in any organization there are hard working individuals who try their utmost but are ultimately dragged down by the bureaucracy of the parent organization.

When I first found this forum I went back in time and read a lot of the earlier posts, including yours regarding the Roy Silks hull and the fact that no one seemed to know who Roy Silks was and therefore your EC can't be registered. In reading Steve Crewes history of the class he makes mention of Roy Silks trying to build hulls in Sydney and out of about ten hulls only two were any good so you possibly have a rather rare EC.

Allow me to quote from the history,

"Later Roy Silks was trying to make them also but was having a lot of trouble with getting them to release out his mould and didn't continue past two hulls, (he flopped a Aero Mini Marine hull, mine). Of the ten hulls he actually pulled out of the mould he only got out 2 that were any good. One of those 2 hulls had a great lot of filling done on the starboard side of the hull. So he gave it up and remained the agent for Sorenson boats and made masts and fittings and poured the leads, fitted the Sorenson boats out to sell in Sydney. I made all the sails."

Curiosity and human nature being what it is I suspect that Peter while he chooses to not post here any more still comes and reads what is being said. As several other of Peter's decisions have possibly been made in haste without a lot of thought, his decision to not post has a negative effect on the class as now no one other than those with whom Peter chooses to have contact can get any information. Surely it would have been more beneficial to rally all the EC troops to this site in the absence of any other forum in which to diseminate information. 



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Straw, (Peter?),

I beg of you, not to forsake these disciussions.

I am eaqually sure that no one has ever intended to make, consciously, any personal criticisms of you, for god knows, you have been prepared to put yourself out there when nobody else could, or would. But the EC12 community needs you.

I can understand what you must feel, but I also know what it feels like from the other side. My frustrations go back now some 10-15 years when I first acquired an EC12. It was only after acquiring it and then trying to get support and information from the ARYA that things went pear shaped. 

I was completely new to this sport, but I knew I loved the shape of the EC12. And after a huge amount of analysis on my part, I decided that the EC12 was what I wanted. But that was when my troubles started. And that's when I lost respect for the committee members of the ARYA. And to add insult to injury, I wanted a NEW EC12 hull. But that was not possible, because the ARYA had not formulated any rules for its construction, and so I can understand no manufacturer wanting to make molds.

I will never, ever, forgive the committee members of the ARYA for this. By the time they made any rules, it was another 10 years later. This was, and is, absolutely unforgiveable! I ended up buying a used version, that leaked so badly, I was put off the EC12, but by then my passion had been confirmed as wanting a 12-metre boat.

From there I went to the Nautic12, of which I bought 2 boats, and then an A2 which is now my pride and joy.

But I digress!

The EC12 Class needs people who know what's happening, and who have the courage to stand up to the senile gentlemen who inhabit the ARYA's holy walls. But whose time has come to depart! Those whose mental structure is still set in the 1920's, those who cannot come to terms with the needs of modern yachtsmen and what it needs to promote this sport in an age of computer games!

The people of the AMRYA were able to make decicisions. The New Zealanders were able to make decisions. But the good old, and I stress the word OLD, members of the ARYA were not, after deliberating for a period in excess of 10 years still unable to formulate a set of EC12 rules! The mind boggles that they were allowed to get away with this!!! 

But that was then. We now need to get the EC12 Class back on track. I personally would like to take up the cudgel, and address the ARYA committee directly about their incompetence, but I have neither the connections, nor the financial resources to do this.

Again Straw, I implore you, please do not forsake this class. It, we, need you!

Regards, Don



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RE: Morgan Black trophy - Series


Fair comments Peter,

                                I accept responsibility and subsequently apologise.

Bob.



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John, because your post was reasonable and well thought through, I choose to respond to this for the last time. All of what you say makes perfect sense and yes it is true that I have my blood,sweat and tears involved in this effort. It appears that you appreciate that fact. I am sorry about Bob and assure you that there was no disrespect on my part towards him in any part of how I responded to his queries. However what is done is done now and I am sure Bob will not miss my involvement here going forward.

Do not mistake what I said about the MB being open only to OA members. That is preceisely what I meant. The MB event is a completely separate event from any official Australian event. The various state and national titles are completely separate under the auspices of the various state and national authorities.

I could simply stop it overnight if I was so minded and the only reason that anyone is able to contemplate competing in it is due to the effort that I have put in to this class. Don't get me wrong about this as it is not a personal horn blowing exercise. It is a simple statement of fact. Does anyone honestly believe we would be anywhere close to where we are now if I had not chosen to go down this path? That might put some noses out of joint I know, but so what? We are at an all or nothing stage now anyway and any dribbling and mewling lamentations by some about the way it once was are now irrelevant. This class requires a whole new broom through it and if there are some that are not interested in getting with the program then so be it and I wash my hands of them. 

The MB however is an "in house" event that will be staged and run by the AEC12OA and it is my preference that it not be 'bludged" on by people who are not prepared to go out of their way and support the effort by joining the OA. The only reason that it is on the agenda here at all is due to my personal overture to the other nations and just prior to this it looked likely to detour us and head for the UK because of the perceived BS that has gone on here for years. Gesst is right when he says that he marvels in the way that EC12 people behave.

He is right to sit it out on the side lines with his boats, but I can say this, that if and when he does finally decide that he needs to embrace some formality and officialdom if you will, he will find all the help and assistance that he may require in the OA. He descibes the OA as an autocracy and to an extent he is right.  I do not resile from that accusation as I would suggest that anything else such as how the affairs of the EC12 class have gone in the past, simply have failed and it is time for a radical change. Is there anyone who can say different??

After tonight, I would have to say that I am a heartbeat away from chucking in the towel with all of this. I am fed up of trying to do what I can to help this class pull itself up by the boot straps and all I get is kicked in the teeth for my trouble! Is there anyone out there who can honestly say that things are fine and dandy in the EC12 world at present? Heck, NSW can't even stage a state title this year (cancelled through lack of interest I understand)!! Maybe the owner of the Lakesedge mould has the magic prescription. Maybe he or someone like him can step up to the plate and tell us all why the phone orders for new 12's are running hot and Daniel Weisman is being run off his feet with all the new registration numbers that he is issuing??? Yeah sure!! 

I believe however that the majority do in fact see the writing on the wall and will in fact join the association for all the valid reasons that I have envisioned. I refuse to be dictated to by small mindedness and fortunately I do not see a lot of that around the ranks these days.

I have stated before and it bears restating, that if you are put in the position of having to lead, then bloody well LEAD!!! I will either be proved right or wrong but I personally belive that I am on the right path.

Forgive the rant but there is only so much that one man can cop and I am fed up copping it! If someone out there can do it better or has a superior prescription then say so now and if necessary organize for different people to run the show. Right about now I don't think I would even care!

This is definitely the last you will hear from me on here. If anyone wants to talk to me, you know where to find me!



-- Edited by Straw on Tuesday 13th of September 2011 12:55:42 AM

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OK, I admit it too. I'm confused as well and I don't even know why I'm confused but I bloody well know I am. Being only a relative newcomer here and to EC12 ownership as well I am obviously in ignorance about a lot of what has transpired here and in EC12 history in the past. I'm damned if I can see anything in the last few posts that could be construed as a personal attack on anyone, although I must admit that by only posting the written word it is sometimes very hard to get across little nuances and inflections along with facial expressions that we do when speaking face to face to someone so it very easy to be taken out of context.

Let me repeat, that I am a newcomer to the EC12 class and a gesst (guest) in every sense of the word in this forum as I no longer belong to any clubs and currently none of my boats are registered. In all my years I have never experienced a class like the EC12 where every bit of information that I gleaned was like having teeth pulled, in other words it was a very painful experience starting right at the very beginning when I first decided that I wanted an EC12. My first contact with the class was I think a gent by the name of (I think) Don Ferguson who informed that there were no hulls being in Australia but that there was an illegal (gasp) mould in Tuross Head, other than that there was no further information forthcoming. Next mission to try and invade the secret society that then and dare I say still exists today was to call a business in Balmain in Sydney called either Model Boatyard or Model Shipyard only to be given the cold shoulder yet again by being told that the were no hulls to be had, end of story.

It's a pity that Peter won't get to read this as he no longer posts here but he is completely correct when he says that the EC12 could with positive promotion be made the best RC yacht class in the country. Now I have absolutely no love YA nor the ARYA due to their bumbling amateur administration but by the same token some of the things I have read here, have in my mind made the AEC12OA sound like an autocracy, now that to me is a situation that is not much better than what is currently the situation.

If, and it's a biggish if, the ARYA hand control back to the owners then there is surely a golden opportunity to right all the wrongs that have gone before. I assume that with the acquisition of the new mould that now conforms to International standards ie. the rest of the EC12 sailing world that there will be some serious rule amending happening. The question I ask is, why can't the AEC12OA accept and implement the current US rules without changes. As the EC12 is so very obviously an American boat does it not make perfect sense to adopt the rules of the founding country? Or is Australia going to go it alone and try to re-invent the wheel and make the EC12 "Suitable for Australian Conditions" (you have no idea how much I hate that phrase). Having read the rules of the three EC12 sailing nations it is Australia alone that stands out as being out of step.

my two cents worth, Harry ...... (plus GST)

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Straw wrote:

As long as our class remains informal in its nature with the unorganized "basket case" conditions that prevail here in Australia  presently together with the lack of unification on a wider international level, then I would have to say that it will remain an event that is the personal plaything of just 3 EC12 owner associations in the US, NZ and now AUS (due to the formation of the AEC12OA no matter what % of boat owners agreed to join).

Be under no allusions that from an AEC12OA perspective, that we would not be likely to countenance non member participation in an event that would not have happened without the involvement and creation of our OA. This is what I have been "banging on" about for "2 bloody years" and trying to get through people's heads about the marvellous things that can happen if we ever collectively decided to join forces in a common entity and start persuing positive things rather than indulging in petty politics and personal character assasination etc!

Arguing and being concerned about inconsequential issues like backyard moulds and amateur builder's rights etc seem to me to be pretty low on the priority list when we find ouselves dealing with much larger issues like the survival of the class itself. I would suggest to you that nothing is more important than that and the type of inordinate importance placed on the protection of some of this "old stuff" that the class has been tearing itself apart over for bloody decades seems mute indeed!!!

You will forgive me for just a tad of self indulgence here when I say that unles yours truly had come up with this "cunning plan", we probably wouldn't be here debating any of these issues. Guys like yourself, WA Boats, Gestt et al would be discussing issues other than EC12 matters I would warrant. So because of me and the tower of strength assist I have received from fellows like Dave Hill  Clyde Rogers and people such as your good self for instance, we would not be here even having this discussion!

 

 


 

 

Peter

 I had intended to stay out of this one, as clearly I am no authority on the EC12.

 All of my inputs have been with a genuine support or in some ways spitballing ideas.. Good & Bad... Some probably a little frustrating to yourself given your huge personal & emotional investment in the Class.

 

This aside I would normally only contribute where there is the opportunity to find balance to any discussion. Maybe air concerns that others might feel reluctant to express.

Modern society is such that we get caught up in this new flashy technology without proper understanding its use.

 

Just try to live without your mobile & Email for a month & you will understand that these forms of communication, including Forums are almost a necessity in getting your message across.

 

One concern I did have was the use of the words of "Not Likely to Countenance Participation of Non-Members"...

 

I think that most Associations have to live with the fact taht visitors will ultimately have to be allowed to participate.. This is what allows Overseas Skippers to attend & to disallow Local Skippers could be detrimental to the cause.. I know we would liek everybody to join but you can't force them.. Yep some will always take advantage of the rewards achieved by the members along the difficult path to success.     

 

I took this statement as mere frustration & perhaps not couched in a manner that was reflective of the intention. 

 

I'm with you on the Frustrations of dealing with ARYA & some of the surrounding issues & I would say that collectively as a Member of Radio Sailing that if all skippers banded together , regardless of Class, that we would achieve all of your aims and possibly many more besides...

 

Not posting is not a good idea in my opinion as then the detractors have won their case. They can sit back on the fence & always claim the information wasn't available to make a valid comparison. Don't act to quickly or harshly.. Some may say the NCC Resignation was a similar knee-jerk reaction.  

Not all will agree with your vision no matter how much you try, all you can do is put the message out there & hopefully more will agree than not.

I think Bob asked a few small questions for clarification & maybe the response was a little outside the square. I don't think either had malice but without the benefit of facial expression & body language things can get misinterpreted.

Us humans are visual creatures & this computer gizmo is not the best form of communication..disbelief

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 



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Ok Bob, now I am completely confused. I am responding to this post without malice even though you have personally attacked me in a very hurtful way. I am completely at a loss as to what has brought this on and I will confine my comments to just what you have said publicly on here and not raise the comments that you have made privately to me via email.

I have attempted to honestly answer your queries and questions which were entirely reasonable and understandable requests for information about what the OA's position would be in regard to the questions asked. Show me one word that I have said publicly on here that could be construed to be disrespectful personally to you or in any other way rude?

The answer is a simple, I have not! I have personally and privately taken yopu into my confidence and sought your council over many matters along the way to the point that we are now at and now I am made to feel like a fool. I do not understand where this has come from and I am deeply hurt and upset that you could feel this way.

There is nothing that I can say or do now as you obviously believe that I have let you down in some way and I can truly say that you have completely misconstued my meaning and intent.

By all means attend down at Carbrook and vent some more of your spleen for whatever grievance that you perceive you have. I promise not to respond harshly or with disrespect.

For whatever grievance I have caused I apologize because there certainly was no malicious intent on my part when I attempted to answer your queries. I now know why these forums are poisonous and I will not post again here and take the advice that many have given me in the past and that is to avoid these chat rooms like the plague. I will now do just that!



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Great reply Peter,

                        You have totally misinterpreted my questions as having some hidden agenda. I find it disturbing that a financial member of the AEC12OA cannot ask open and valid questions and receive an equivalent open and honest reply without resorting to public personal attacks.

                        Perhaps Im not the one with a hidden agenda.



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Hi Bob, well it certainly seems that the prospect of the MB being held here in Australia has certainly stirred up a fair bit of interest and unecessary speculation. Let me say this for the record that the OA is already a fact and an incorporated organization here in QLD. As such we are a completely separate and independant identity that is capable of acting completely on its own just as John has eluded to.

This MB series you must understand is not "formal" in any sense of the word and is just as Rick states, just a simple get together of like minded individuals who come together from all parts of the world to have some fun sailing EC12's.

It is true that I personally have been instrumental in facilitating the thought of the MB being sailed for in Australia and I suppose you can say that it is an AEC12OA initiative now and as such will be subject to any conditions that we as members of the OA decide to place on the event and indeed who will be eligible to sail in said event.

As long as our class remains informal in its nature with the unorganized "basket case" conditions that prevail here in Australia  presently together with the lack of unification on a wider international level, then I would have to say that it will remain an event that is the personal plaything of just 3 EC12 owner associations in the US, NZ and now AUS (due to the formation of the AEC12OA no matter what % of boat owners agreed to join).

Be under no allusions that from an AEC12OA perspective, that we would not be likely to countenance non member participation in an event that would not have happened without the involvement and creation of our OA. This is what I have been "banging on" about for "2 bloody years" and trying to get through people's heads about the marvellous things that can happen if we ever collectively decided to join forces in a common entity and start persuing positive things rather than indulging in petty politics and personal character assasination etc!

Arguing and being concerned about inconsequential issues like backyard moulds and amateur builder's rights etc seem to me to be pretty low on the priority list when we find ouselves dealing with much larger issues like the survival of the class itself. I would suggest to you that nothing is more important than that and the type of inordinate importance placed on the protection of some of this "old stuff" that the class has been tearing itself apart over for bloody decades seems mute indeed!!!

You will forgive me for just a tad of self indulgence here when I say that unles yours truly had come up with this "cunning plan", we probably wouldn't be here debating any of these issues. Guys like yourself, WA Boats, Gestt et al would be discussing issues other than EC12 matters I would warrant. So because of me and the tower of strength assist I have received from fellows like Dave Hill  Clyde Rogers and people such as your good self for instance, we would not be here even having this discussion!

Having said all of the above I can speculate however, that there is every real chance that the MB event, given time. may well morph itself into a full blown recognized World Championship event once the last couple of aims that are contained within my submission (should I now more accurately refer to it as my manifesto?) are persued.

As you are aware I made it clear that as part of my multi facetted strategy, I intended that the OA enter into formal dialogue with the US and NZ authorities in ordere to bring about all prescriptions that would need to prevail in order to obtain uniformity for the yacht and the ability to make application to ISAF for recognition of the class as a true international class. All I require is the necessary support from my fellow Aussie owners. That is my vision and I believe numerous others share that vision.

So please, let us all agree that these matters to which you refer are in hand and are not al all dependent on ARYA involvement or sanction if push does actually come to shove! It certainly would lend a certain degree of formality to the event I grant you, but not necessary if it comes to that. This event will be well in hand and controlled in it's entirity by the AEC12OA with a strong hand. We have more than sufficient formal support through QRYA auspices and I regard the state body more importantly than I do the national authority who is at the end of the day, simply the servant of the state councils. Check out that vexatios document called the ARYA constitution.

So hope this sheds a little more light on matters and is sufficient to quieten the fluttery hearts of all who are worried about things. 

As far as dates and times and eligibility of competitors etc, all will be revealled in due course. Let me say though that as far as the MB is concerned, financial membership of the OA would be a distinct advantage.

Membership documentation is being provided in the "mail out" that most owners should now be in possession of. Anyone who does not have a copy of the membership form please contact either David Hill or myself and we will get a copy to you. 

 

 


 



 



 



 



 



 



-- Edited by Straw on Monday 12th of September 2011 01:23:12 PM

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Thanks John,

                   It would appear the Morgan Black competition will be held regardless of decision pending from the ARYA.

          It would be informative (for OA members) to know what countries have been invited, hosting club location, dates, eligability for Australia owners, what assistance is required etc. etc.

         If anyone has copies of OA member information relating to the AEC12OA process I would appreciate your assistance.  



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Rick

I think that what Bob means is under whose Authority the Racing is conducted.

In OZ most recongniosed classes Racing is under the control of ARYA or one of it's clubs. This brings with it difficulties which may include class rules etc.

The AEC12OA being a club under Qld would be OK but permission would need to flow through the usual channels. Not simple issues to resolve if there are conflicting Rules.




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Yes, I understand about this process that has been ongoing. I was speaking about the Mogan Black. I do not undstand what that has to do with seven nations being invited by a host in QLD for friendship and sailing? What am I missing?



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Rick West, US EC12 CS
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Mr. West,

            I based my post in anticipation of ARYA approval to transfer control of the class to the AEC12OA. Regrettably, this has not occurred to date and subsequently, the future remains Negotiable.



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What is there to negotiate?



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Rick West, US EC12 CS
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Or maybe even more Bob

Interest I know of indicates maybe 6-8 from USA and the same from NZL without adding some of the others out there with boats like, SWE, JPN and UK.

Add a couple of AUS wink to the mix and we could see 40 boats



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Chris
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EC12's NZL1, 110, 128


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Morgan Black – Invitational


 

Please be advised the AEC12OA are in the early stages of negotiating the holding of the first ever Morgan Black Trophy series here in Qld in February 2013. International interest may see as many as a dozen competitors.

 

More information to follow as it becomes available.

Bob.  



-- Edited by Admin on Saturday 17th of September 2011 12:10:04 AM

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