model yachting Australia - including d'12metre radio yacht forums

Maverick · Guru

RE: This sport needs opinions and points of view!

waboats · Senior Member

Wargames wrote:
Hi I don,t think it has relevance to the local club sailor, it is merely an aspect of the sport each sailor can choose to be part of. To attend ranking events other than local state is expensive, so it indicates a level of involment, rather than skill ? The local guys keep sailing thier boats, the ranking guy still sails with them....I really don,t see that there is importance to the ranking other than another aspect to the sport.

I can certainly see where you are coming from. It would seem that ranking is not a measure of skill as one would think & as you say is more of an indication of involvement in such events & Dollars spent.

If it was a true measure of skill then I would tend to include the last 12 months points achieved even with the inclusion of Club Scratch Sailing

For example you could rank the skipper in club sailing by giving them a score.. maybe something like , Winner = Total Sailors +1, 2nd Winners Total -2, 3rd Winners Total -3 etc. smile

Limit Skipper to 2 outings per month taht count towards overall score to try to keep it even.. smile

The Perception with Radio Sailing is the man with the deepest pockets is most likely to be at the pointy end of the fleet. Chequebook Racing.

Getting a higher Ranking can seem to be achieved in a similar fashion.

But seriously though

. How is it possible to properly rank any Individual when they do not compete against the people they are ranked against.

No issue with State Ranking if that is where the measure is taken. And used to encourage sending the best possible State Team to National Events. Any positions not taken up by the States can then pass to local skippers down the list.

I would rather see smaller fleets at Nationals (IOM's obviously) & see more racing with the better skilled sailors representing their states..

No disrespect to the guys happily sailing in C & D Fleet but as a spectacle it is limited & impacts on the true integrity of a National Event.

Bearing in mind taht thes eare teh only events taht get

Wargames · Member

Hi I don,t think it has relevance to the local club sailor, it is merely an aspect of the sport each sailor can choose to be part of. To attend ranking events other than local state is expensive, so it indicates a level of involment, rather than skill ? The local guys keep sailing thier boats, the ranking guy still sails with them....I really don,t see that there is importance to the ranking other than another aspect to the sport.

waboats · Senior Member

Ron

I suppose as in all things Radio Sailing it goes wherever you take it.

Opinions & Ideas & Points of View?

When it comes to Rankings I suppose I was wondering how it all fits together & why the need for such importance at the expense of the Local Club Sailor?

Cheers

John

Wargames · Member

Hi I had a quick look at the ranking sheet, almost forgot about it....I am 16 th in the RM class......so what I am not sure what has happened your way,but, it sounds bad, why bother...I would be inclined to sail in my home water away from all of the bother, even of it is salt water......but then if you join ARYA you part of the system ? Not sure where this thread is going......

waboats · Senior Member

Wargames wrote:
Hi There is a rule. It is rule 69, and with leadership it can be enforced.....

Gesst wrote:
Hi John

Under the current way that most clubs operate I tend to think that it is very hard to attract and retain new members, most people when they embark on a new endeavor tend to be a little shy and reserved and consequently tend to lurk in the background and get steamrollered into submission by the dominant majority.
Ultimately they think that the club is not a very friendly or convivial atmosphere and either resign or just leave and never come back.

Harry

Ron

Yes Rule 69 is a very nice rule to have in reserve... If only there were enough people with the Balls , to use it once & a while..

Harry

I think you are describing My Club & probably most of them.. When I joined it was a friendly group going to a local lake (150km round trip for me) & having a fun days sailing. No Internet ramblings & on-line score sheets. One or two took it way too serious but most were there for the social.

I'm now the 2nd longest serving member & I rarely go sailing there anymore. I can point to the exact time the whole thing got messy & bad tempered.. 2002

They implemented the Ranking system & immediately the dynamic changed.. It was all about getting one up on your fellow member. Even if you don't enter a ranking event, I hear others claiming to be a better sailor just because they have entered one.

What was the purpose;

a) The ARYA has developed a selection criteria to enable it to enter members to represent Australia at International Regattas, Regional Championships and other events where entry is restricted....

The system will also provide National recognition for skippers in each class of yacht

What is the outcome;

Segregation & Win at all costs.

And can anybody actually remember a time when this Ranking System has been employed to determine who can Represent Australia or your State . Can you point to a person who has nominated to enter yet because of the Ranking was excluded.

If they were to actually limit the number of entries to events such as the Nationals, then it might mean something. To those that like those sort of things, but at the moment it is seen as redundant & lacks any integrity..

Cheers

John

-- Edited by waboats on Wednesday 14th of December 2011 09:12:09 AM

Gesst · Veteran Member

Hi John

No, you didn't open any wounds, old or new, what happened then is water under the bridge. Unfortunately though the attitude of elitism and egoism is very prevalent and I have seen it at other sailing clubs as well, you'd think they were all betting sheep stations. Under the current way that most clubs operate I tend to think that it is very hard to attract and retain new members, most people when they embark on a new endeavor tend to be a little shy and reserved and consequently tend to lurk in the background and get steamrollered into submission by the dominant majority. Ultimately they think that the club is not a very friendly or convivial atmosphere and either resign or just leave and never come back.

Harry

Wargames · Member

Hi There is a rule. It is rule 69, and with leadership it can be enforced.....the best method seems to be to change the culture, this begins at club level. Our club has a code of conduct and this is applied at club level and any event including stae events held at our club venue......it works

waboats · Senior Member

Harry

I forgot, you suffered a similar attitude at the last Major R/C Regatta you attended... Sorry if I opened an old wound..

My concern with the comments passed on to me, were who was in charge.

Like Ron says, Maybe some of the egos need to be told move on or change the behavior, it needs leadership.

Not sure the Outgoing ARYA President, Mr Bell, would have been too impressed with the Behaviour, so I suppose that was HIS reasoning for cancelling the Race.

Somewhere I think there needs to be a Disqualification Policy at events to do away with the arguments at the lakeside..

Gesst · Veteran Member

waboats wrote:

The recent State Laser Championships were held at Perth Radio Sailing. 2nd Day was relocated to South Perth foreshore without any notice to Public.
A missed opportunity for a potential new member...
Such is life in WA...

John

John, it's not about the public or even trying to attract new members. It's all about ME! Look at ME! See how good I am? I'm so good that I don't need anyne else. Like you said, the ego gets in the way of common sense.

Harry

waboats · Senior Member

Ron

I agree these sort of things should not happen.. Local Clubs seem to stamp it out but when it comes to the supposedly more prestigeous events like State Championships it all goes to "Pot". Well they must be "ON" Something, because they tend to act a bit Dopey.

The One time they should be on their Best Behaviour, but unfortunately not

I would disqualify any that kept on going beyond an official warning & that warrning would have happened at the Briefing... There is no excuse for such behaviour at the lakeside. But when no penalty is applied what can you expect..

The recent State Laser Championships were held at Perth Radio Sailing. 2nd Day was relocated to South Perth foreshore without any notice to Public. I had encouraged a few to attend. I sold my Laser & they were keen to see how it all worked at the top end.. Empty lake so I copped it sweet for sending them on a wasted journey. disbelief

A missed opportunity for a potential new member...

Such is life in WA...

John

Wargames · Member

Hi It is a shame this happens, but it does. Our club has a code of conduct.....this behavior has stopped, the gentle art of sportsmanship has returned and the sailing is improved. Maybe some of the ego,s need to be told move on or change the behavior, it needs leadership.

waboats · Senior Member

OK change of tact

Received a piece of info this morning. I think this attitude is the one thing that confronts Radio Sailing more than anything.

"On Sunday, just after you left I think, after several course changes, racing continued, loud arguments mid race, Mr PRO Bell cancelled race, arguments still continued....we left, that was enough to put anyone off," disbelief

I went to the State IOM's to enjoy watching a few races.. It was clearly very testy & simmering.. So after waiting an hour with 1 race completed I gave up, went home & mowed the lawn.

waboats · Senior Member

Don

I wrote a longish reply.. Got tired & lost it in cyber land... confuse

The thing about the Micro Magic is there are now 4 Models (actually 5) of the Kit around that people have been sailing.

The MK2 was perhaps the first to be made commercially available in OZ. Prior to that the MK1 was the norm. And to make it a racing boat lots of modification to the MK1 Rigging & Sails was necessary.

Once that was done in the rules the MK1 became quite a good boat to sail & race. A few years later the MK2 arrives with better rigging... But the rules allowed Rig Modification. So now we have 2 Kit forms to play with.

So in part the evolution of the Boat has resulted in some of the cost blowout for those that think MODS are necessary..

But mostly with a little imagination the costs can be kept reasonable.

So as an Entry Level Boat I think it fits, & covers almost every level skipper, should they choose to give it a go.

What I feel is very important from a Radio Sailing point of View is;

ARYA need to be very proactive in promotion of a class of boat that will encourage & include New Members. They need to look at all aspects, including transport, overall cost, access to water, target market. They simply need to look to the future.

RG65 in Argentina is one example..

That way even if people don't immediately join an ARYA Club they have a tatste for Radio Sailing & when they move to clubs for a taste of bigger & better classes they have a solid foundation behind them & are likely to stay longer.

Cheers

John

Maverick · Guru

I agree with your comments John! I may be wrong about the keel...lol

And I have an MM as well! In fact I was one of the first in this country to buy one!

My invoice said MM#1, but I was assigned registration #5.

I bought one because I believed in the concept!

And I still believe, no modifications should be made to the original product! If this does not cater for skill levels from the absolute beginner to the most hardened competitor, even to international competition, then I don't know what does!

waboats · Senior Member

Wargames wrote:
...I can,t help but still feel good watching a fast boat carve through the water and want a piece of the action.

Ron

I know what you mean... biggrin

I feel the Need... blankstare

Mav

Not sure where the Carbon Keels on Micros are coming from.. I know I painted one to look carbon like. A fair job I thought confuse ..

Those German Guys have taken this little boat to another level.. Lucky us have stayed with the MM International Rules & trying to keep it as simple as possible.

Most of the Suggested Modifications are of little real improvement.. Mostly in the mind & a waste of good money. ashamed But I have tried most of them just for fun..

But Value for Money the Standard MM is right up there with anything you can get off the shelf of a similar size.. I'm biased mind you... And unashamedly so...

It's not a 10R or an A.. But it has its' place in Radio Sailing in my humble opinion, whether that's ARYA or Soical Sailing.

Cheers

John

Wargames · Member

Hi My last remark was probaly to tongue in check......the IOM was supposed to be the boat for all, at least in the beginning. I think that at some point there will be a return to building boats but not how some of us remember, The micro is that return and maybe the beginning. The thoughts and discussion can be compared to the boats sailing in the worlds in Perth, none of these are home built, I guess it just depends on what you want to sail for.....ARYA or not ARYA.......I can,t help but still feel good watching a fast boat carve through the water and want a piece of the action.

Maverick · Guru

Wargames wrote:
Hi The demise of adults with a shed, hand tool skills and the ability to build things along with the advent of I want one now , has seen the decline In many aspects of modeling......not many will build a plane from scratch, let alone a boat. I have people who would like to sail with me, big boat, they do a day course and think thats it........much of society has become very shallow and very reliant on others to provide.....if the power goes of there would be disaster So, maybe a class that is easy to build and has to be built by the owner.....along the same lines as the mirror.

I agree with this post except for the very last sentence.

The day of the buider, even I need to concede has gone, unless one buys the Micro Magik in kit form... What a shame.

The future, I really do believe, lay in RTS, (Ready To Sail), boats, for unfortunately, that is now our world. And I fear there will be no going back now! cry

Maverick · Guru

Thank you John, for publishing this link!

Can recommend Steve's site for other good looking Boats of All Sorts & Sizes..

http://www.stevearthursails.com

Maverick · Guru

Wargames wrote:
The r/c yachting thing became buy the boat ready made thing, you will notice the world champ sails a different boat every time, the the others all want one It is possible to build your own and sail it......you just cannot buy sailing skill

Check out he TS16 that steve Arthur in SA is selling 500 ready to go with radio, two boats on the water and you have a race

Whoaaaaa!!! How about some more details about the TS16? biggrin

Maverick · Guru

waboats wrote:
Dollars & the reality of what it costs to enter the hobby is the biggest stumbling block to new members entering the hobby.
But overall it is about the participation and about who & what is welcome.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ed Zachary!!! smile biggrin

Maverick · Guru

waboats wrote:
What more can be said... $$$'s will be a thinking mans entry into the sport & hobby. At those prices the market is very very thin...
Just got back from the State IOM champs (didn't stay long) & in one conversation I was hearing "the standard $5000 for a boat argument. Anything less & you will be stuck mid-fleet regardless of how good you are"..
Just as you said .. Radio Sailing can be a very hard sell...

It would be great to see a sub-$500 entry level class...

Two points if I may:

1. I supect that the ARYA, misguidedly, wants to keep radio yachting as an elitist sport. But they are too stupid to realise that unless they encourage new blood into the sport, at reasonable costs, that they will be responsible, for themselves, as well as this sport, meeting the fate of their, the ARYA Committee, brethren, the dinosaurs, in becoming extinct!

2. There once was a sub-$500 entry level class...

It was called the Micro-Magik! But now, the elitist, or so they think, wankers, (comment intentional! smile ), have regulated that carbon keels, masts and other fittings are okay, thereby increasing costs well beyond the sub-$500 cost.

Why they had to do this, is absolutely beyond me! There was initially, an avenue for a beginner to enter the sport, and using a boat, the same as everyone else's to progress from absolute newcommer to national champion. Costs are such now that newcomer's no longer feel this a suitable option.

And we must not forget, that the IOM was initially designed and introduced, to fulfill exactly the same requirements as the Micro-Magik! How true it is, that those who do not remember history, are compelled to repeat it! cry

How mind bogglingly disgusting!

waboats · Senior Member

Ron

From all of the Plans & Kits out there, I can see a possibility in starting up a simple build class.

The Wee Nip is a good option & easy build. One of many... I built one a few years ago & the only problem was the lead bulb (isn't it always)..

Maybe a good project idea for the MENS SHED organisation..

http://www.mensshed.org/home/.aspx

Cheers

John

Wargames · Member

Hi The demise of adults with a shed, hand tool skills and the ability to build things along with the advent of I want one now , has seen the decline In many aspects of modeling......not many will build a plane from scratch, let alone a boat. I have people who would like to sail with me, big boat, they do a day course and think thats it........much of society has become very shallow and very reliant on others to provide.....if the power goes of there would be disaster So, maybe a class that is easy to build and has to be built by the owner.....along the same lines as the mirror.

waboats · Senior Member

Ron

The Harley is a nice looking boat. I know someone who built one full size many years ago.. A good day sailer for the river & the occasional trip off the coast (watch the weather)

I have talked to Steve about these but as yet haven't taken the plunge... The Micro seems to be taking hold over here as the preferred entry option. Not sure how many will graduate to joining ARYA Clubs, but the numbers sailing are increasing slowly

For the Hartley Fans.

http://www.stevearthursails.com/apps/videos/videos/show/11303537-hartley-1-8th-scale-r-c-yacht

Can recommend Steve's site for other good looking Boats of All Sorts & Sizes..

http://www.stevearthursails.com

blankstare

Wargames · Member

Hi It did, many years ago require people to build there own boat....as you will see in the hobby shop you buy a car or a plane, build it yourself and enter the fray. The r/c yachting thing became buy the boat ready made thing, you will notice the world champ sails a different boat every time, the the others all want one It is possible to build your own and sail it......you just cannot buy sailing skill Check out he TS16 that steve Arthur in SA is selling 500 ready to go with radio, two boats on the water and you have a race

waboats · Senior Member

Dollars & the reality of what it costs to enter the hobby is the biggest stumbling block to new members entering the hobby.

Planes, Car & even Fast Electric boats have all but done away with Fuel Motors. Brushless is so much more efficient & cheaper these days.

Local Flying Field for Heli's & Planes is now solely for Electric Flight. The Local Club has increased its' membership by 200% since they allowed in what they call Foamies.. Cheap off the shelf planes that almost anybody can fly. I can't fly for nuts, but I do enjoy going down to watch.

I know the membership fees are near double that of boats.. Insurance for a wayaward plane is understandable.

But overall it is about the participation and about who & what is welcome.

NO answer to the current cost while the Big Boys have sway over all things Radio Sailing.

-- Edited by waboats on Monday 12th of December 2011 12:00:05 PM

Gesst · Veteran Member

Funnily enough you never hear of planes or cars costing the same as what is being asked for boats. Sure there are expensive planes out there but generally they fall into the multi engine and multi channel category, not the two channel and a fibreglass hull with a plastic sail type of thing.

If you were to break down the average costs of both a boat and plane down to its component parts I doubt if there is much more then $100 worth of materials in either of them.

waboats · Senior Member

Gesst wrote:
Model yacht sailing needs to alter its mindset and declare that it is a pastime for anyone at any age. Mind you, when someone advertises a used 1 metre boat at $5000 then it becomes a hard sell to convince people that it can be done for under $1000 for a brand new boat.
Harry

Harry

What more can be said... $$$'s will be a thinking mans entry into the sport & hobby. At those prices the market is very very thin...

Just got back from the State IOM champs (didn't stay long) & in one conversation I was hearing "the standard $5000 for a boat argument. Anything less & you will be stuck mid-fleet regardless of how good you are"..

Just as you said .. Radio Sailing can be a very hard sell...

It would be great to see a sub-$500 entry level class... blankstare

Gesst · Veteran Member

Ok, having thought a bit more about why people aren't attracted to model yacht sailing in the same manner that they embrace either model planes or model cars.

I think we can generally agree that it easier to find a suitable venue for either planes or cars than it is for yachts.

Planes are exciting to watch, yachts for most people aren't. Planes go very fast, yachts don't. Planes can do acrobatic maneuvers, yachts don't, in fact to the casual observer they only seem to go where the wind takes them and they don't do anything to get people excited and motivated. Possibly, people relate better to planes and cars as they have a familiarity with them that maybe doesn't apply to yachts.

All the above points also apply to cars, there is a noise, a smell of burnt rubber and fuel. Electrics by definition are boring and I think this the way the greater part of spectators perceive yacht sailing to be as well, boring.

To put it bluntly and at the risk of offending some people, yacht sailing is more cerebral. To put it another way, if you ask someone to play either frisbees in the park or play a game a chess what would you guess the outcome to be? I liken sailing to more like chess, a thinking persons pastime.

Model yacht sailing needs to alter its mindset and declare that it is a pastime for anyone at any age. Mind you, when someone advertises a used 1 metre boat at $5000 then it becomes a hard sell to convince people that it can be done for under $1000 for a brand new boat.

Harry

waboats · Senior Member

Gesst wrote:
the point I was trying to make is that further up the chain of command ARYA is part of YA the same as YA is part of ISAF.
Now the fact that YA themselves can't be bothered to promote their own sport is possibly the lead that ARYA took, and are likewise not doing anything to attract new members.
Harry

Harry

Some good looking country around your neck of the woods.. Reminds me a lot of the SW Forest areas of WA.

I see you have your own set of Crop Circles as well.. blankstare

I think the one point we all agree on is the ARYA isn't doing anything of note to attract New Members...

What worked in 1964 certainly isn't what is happening now & beyond...

Personally I would love to see a List of Ideas & a platform for change submitted by all Nominees to ARYA Positions. That way we could get an idea of what to expect from the new executive.

And maybe we could then vote to decide our State Council Voting at the ARYA AGM..

Cheers

John

Gesst · Veteran Member

Maverick, you are right when you say that we shouldn't let the full scale organisations be compared to radio yacht mismanagement, the point I was trying to make is that further up the chain of command ARYA is part of YA the same as YA is part of ISAF. Now the fact that YA themselves can't be bothered to promote their own sport is possibly the lead that ARYA took, and are likewise not doing anything to attract new members.

BIA is the Boating Industry Association, the peak body that represents marine manufacturers and retailers in Australia. It strikes me as strange that an industry association is leading the charge to get people interested in a sport which in all reality is only a very small portion of the total number of boat owners out there.

When you say that flying fields are few and far between I take that to mean sanctioned fields as opposed to any old paddock where people gather to fly. Here where I live there's two flying fields, one in the middle of a horse racing complex and the other at one of the local high schools. The high school one is electric flight only due to noise restrictions being very close to the CBD and the other one is in military restricted airspace and yet they fly jets from there. Check it out

http://maps.google.com/?ll=-34.90405,150.589659&spn=0.003946,0.008234&hnear=Nowra+New+South+Wales,+Australia&t=h&z=18&vpsrc=6

Harry

Maverick · Guru

Ahhh, but I see what is, and dream of what could be! smile biggrin

waboats · Senior Member

There is no easy Fix for the problems( perceived or otherwise) that beset ARYA & Organisations of a similar makeup.

Somewhere we always pay for a service & get little if anything in return.

Ron is right.. Just get out there & do it.. For sure & certain nobody is going to help you unless there is a benefit to them. And ALL the hard work has been done...

A comparison to Big Boats is necessary in Radio Sailing. Just have to start sailing a boat to guess what the first question you will be asked... Make no Mistake, this is BIG BOAT sailing only in Miniature... The Politics & Attitudes are the same, only the Class is different.

Just have to remind ourselves what the IOM tried to do & become a seperate & individual class from all others & enter the BIG Boat area.

The Focus is and always will be the running of Ranking Events & Like regattas.

Opportunities to Promote will always play a distant second. Little forward thinking nor planning. Some events will have Low Entries & possible cancellations due to other commitments & events taking priority.

Take the WA IOM State champs this weekend.. Right in the middle of the ISAF regatta.

Could have some great outcomes on all levels by considering a different time or perhaps the same time but a different venue, closer to the Sailing.

A man should look for what is, and not for what he thinks should be.

(AE)

-- Edited by waboats on Saturday 10th of December 2011 12:47:50 PM

Wargames · Member

Hi I will maintain my thoughts that if you want to do something and there are a couple of others that want to play a swell then it will happen. I sail in salt water, as do the others that play here in SA.....we just wash the boats down, we all have a little spray bottle, never had a problem that wasn't,t my own for being slack ? Sometimes you need to just get on with it, don,t expect anything other than what you do for yourself and others in your group.....if I sailed in WA I would be sailing in front of the little creatures pub in Fremantle or at the sailing club....as I did at one stage when I was there for a big boat thing....the RM created an intrest as I used it to teach big boat sail trimming and match racing skills and rules. BIA....boating industry association....all the business guys that sell boat bits YY the guys that charge sailors a fee to Do something we are not sure of but they tell us they are essential, we all still sail .....and if you are good enough to be at Olympic standard you might get some help ? Mustn,t grumble.....so just do it

Maverick · Guru

Gesst wrote:
________________________________________
There may be any number of small lakes and ponds in which it looks as though you might be able to sail, but till you "test" the waters It might prove more difficult eg. I have a marblehead and a one metre boat sitting in the shed as I have no easy access to deep water, whereas I can have access to quite a few that will float an EC12 or a Canterbury J quite comfortably.

ARYA is a total embarrassment to the pastime of radio sailing in the same way that YA is a disgrace to sailing. I know that in most sailing clubs no money ever trickles down, it's all take. Most clubs around Australia on the first Sunday in November host the "Try Sailing" days which encourages newcomers to try out sailing with an experienced skipper on his boat and I know from this that quite a few clubs do gain new members that become full time participants. The really sad part of the "Try Sailing" days is that they are sponsored by the BIA and not YA the BIA might get some money back from the sale of boats and hardware but the YA just keeps on coming back year after year for the members fees.
________________________________________

A very valid post regarding sailing venues! I have a 10-rater and an IOM that I can sail, only rarely. So I mostly sail my Nautic 12 and Australia II Class boat. But then, I am biased, and I would choose to sail a 12-metre any day, compared to any other class.

But then again, flying fields are few and far between also. But still, they get the members, but the sailors don't. But I suspect that is all down to promotion.

There are so many magazines available in the local newsagent that have aeroplane, helicopter, train and car content, but very very few that cater for model yachting! And none, that cater for model boating, in any form, are Australian!

Reference by Gesst was also made to YA and BIA. YA, I assume, (yes, I know the definition associated with the definition), means Yachting Australia, but I have not the faintest idea of what BIA is an acronym for.

And we must not confuse the issues of full size organisations as being identical to those of radio yacht associations.

waboats · Senior Member

Harry

I totally agree with you on finding an appropriate water to match whatever class you are sailing. Goes for just about everything.

IN WA they fear putting their boats anywhere near Salt Water.. That is one of the excuses for not Promoting the Hobby more vigorously at the ISAF Championships (PERTH) in Fremantle. That's direct from an RSAWA Committee member & past State IOM Champion.

So I guess I hear lots of reasons & some bordering on excuses. Water suitability is a valid reason.

From my part I will try sail almost anywhere... Being prepared for the worst.

Some 5 maybe 6 years ago a small group of us decided to move away from a strongly political Scale Boat Club. If it had sails it wasn't allowed... Sound Familiar

So we started a small group of sails & motor boats that wanted freedom to choose their own craft. At the time there was a local Newspaper sent to 10,000 homes each month & we got ourselves in with the editor. A free Monthly, Full Page Ad dedicated to our little boat club.

We approached the local Residents next to the lake we intended to use & contacted the council with a proposal. Being small we got another scale club to assist with the insurance. They got full memberships fees & we got coverage (nothing else). We didn't mind even with the Local Scale Club we had left only 10km away.

About 6 months in we managed to get the numbers up to 15 (mostly scale). So well on our way to forming a club. Just needed to set things up.

All was fine until the local scale club put their oar in & stopped the other club supporting the venture. So we lost coverage & the council were a tad nervous.

The group eventually settled to a smaller number of between 5 & 10 on any given day. We still sail, & puddle our boats & some Fast Electrics & have a hoot of a time at the lake. And we function quite well as a very informal group of mates @ the Lake.

Nobody complains & we all take responsibility for being extra careful.

http://www.wix.com/ellenbrookboats/ellenbrook

But in the end it isn't a Club by any definition & we simply can't race our yachts or even look to move beyond where we are.

A few guys want to race the Micro Magic but we simply can't get the WA Clubs to recognise the need for assistance & support. So instead of 5 going to Qld in 2012 for the MM Nationals we are down to 1 & maybe another from down south.

But without a poroper base & a way into the Sport/Hobby we are left to encourage as much as we dare & hope that one day maybe we will be big enough to move beyond the petty politics that engulfs Radio Sailing in Australia.

John

blankstare

-- Edited by waboats on Friday 9th of December 2011 09:10:42 PM

Gesst · Veteran Member

I think that one of the underlying problems with sailing as opposed to cars and planes is that there is not always a suitable body of water to which there is easy public access whereas cars and planes only need a two dimensional playing field.

There may be any number of small lakes and ponds in which it looks as though you might be able to sail, but till you "test" the waters It might prove more difficult eg. I have a marblehead and a one metre boat sitting in the shed as I have no easy access to deep water, whereas I can have access to quite a few that will float an EC12 or a Canterbury J quite comfortably.

I agree with Wargames and John who both stated that if you only wish to sail at a local level then the involvement of the the ARYA is totally superfluous, in which case just sail whatever, where ever whenever.

ARYA is a total embarrassment to the pastime of radio sailing in the same way that YA is a disgrace to sailing. I know that in most sailing clubs no money ever trickles down, it's all take. Most clubs around Australia on the first Sunday in November host the "Try Sailing" days which encourages newcomers to try out sailing with an experienced skipper on his boat and I know from this that quite a few clubs do gain new members that become full time participants. The really sad part of the "Try Sailing" days is that they are sponsored by the BIA and not YA the BIA might get some money back from the sale of boats and hardware but the YA just keeps on coming back year after year for the members fees.

Maverick · Guru

Wargames wrote:
I really don,t see what the beef is about.....if you don,t like the people or the organization then don,t join and get your own group together..and go sailing, if the group gets big the form a Association ....have I missed something ?

Hi Wargames,

I agree with your comments, including the section I have chosen to quote.

The beef as I see it, is just that there is a lack of information at the very lowest level, of public awareness, that this sport even exists.

It's okay to say, get your own group together, but if one is completely new to the sport, don't know anyone else that sails, and is not aware of any organisations that may help a newbie get started, chances are that one will be lost to the sport forever, before one even knows of its existence!

waboats · Senior Member

So all in all there is no simple answer.

But without a committed ARYA to promote & progress the Hobby & Sport of Radio Sailing there is no opportunity to increase the participation levels of the hobby/sport.

Trains, Planes & Automobiles have it in spades over Radio Sailing when it comes to participation at all levels.

Go along to any R/C Car Display & you will see events & races for 10 year olds.. Grand Pop & Dad's in the Pits tuning the Car & doing everything possible to stay involved. And they are proud to be included.

I personally think that ARYA & State Bodies could learn a lot from other Hobbies/Sports & maybe benefit from their experiences.. Not sit back in committees hashing things around trying to find ways to shut down Discussions, Forums & Chat Rooms.

They need to wake up & enter the modern world..

Gesst · Veteran Member

Howdy,

10 is a psychologically satisfying number, "The 10 commandments", "The 10 best dressed" or even "The 10 most wanted".

The number ten gives credence to a statement in the same manner as saying that 87.88975% of statistics are wrong doesn't.

nuff said, Harry

waboats · Senior Member

Ron

IN the past small numbers was OK.. Then came 9/11 & from there Insurance & especially 3rd party has skyrocketed...

To start a club you need a minimum of 6 permanent members in most states & if at any time you lose one then the club folds. No coverage & protections under the law. So 10 is a good buffer...

Councils aren't taking the risks like they used to. And to use their facilities you need coverage or run the risk as individuals.

Because ARYA has its' tentacles in any yacht that comes along (just because it has Radio Yachting in its' name) to do any racing & maybe do a bit of serious stuff you need ARYA Coverage.

There is simply no co-operation between Scale & Sail... To allow for Both to co-exist happily and support each other..

John

Wargames · Member

Hi Not sure why 10 is the number, I know we started with 4 and the Mawson guys started in the shed building boats with around 5. It's a matter of starting, try the local council for support, they often cover small groups, The expression " build it and they will come " applies here......so you don,t need to join ARYA.....no matter what boats you sail Look forward to hearing about the new club ?

waboats · Senior Member

Ron

That's why I listed Mawson Lakes as an example of a success where the standard Classes are few & far between.

Obviously they have gone about things to suit their needs & by all accounts quite a good result.

I know a few over here want to try something similar but starting small without 10 committed the formation of a club is little shaky. Would be good to see Clubs open up to these small groups & encourge their involvement. And once they get sufficient numbers a New Club could be formed..

I know in the Scale Boat scene they have a few Satellite Groups (Parent Club with a country Branch). Once they are big enough to stand on their own they go their merry way with the blessing & support of all the members.

A win for everybody blankstare

Cheers

John

-- Edited by waboats on Thursday 8th of December 2011 09:33:32 PM

Wargames · Member

Hi John, The Mawson lakes guys are a great example, they are part of our local sailing and are affiliated with the state ARYA, not a IOM in sight, unless one of the guys wants to sail one. They run a regatta every year, with great prizes......for all comers all classes sailing together around very odd courses with there own handicap system It does work......and goes to all is not lost....... Ron

waboats · Senior Member

Ron

In simple terms I would agree with you.

The problems with Modern Life & the Need for Insurance Protections (City Councils etc) is such that Small Groups cannot get together & hope everything will be fine. Yes it will until something goes wrong. Then what? So smaller less experienced groups don't get the opportunities nor the support to get things moving. And when they do they are forced into the expensive IOM route as a priority. From experience nothing other than the established classes are allowed nor supported.

The result is they go elsewhere, most probably R/C Planes or Cars.. Lost forever. And to quote from one senior member of Radio Sailing.. Who Cares!!

Having a one Power ARYA is fine if it serves the members of Clubs. But is should be prepared to give gives back something of tangable value for the membership subscriptions.

What is support anyway, Ands what leadership would & should be expected from the ARYA.. Surely the costs in running an Internet Based Committee such as ARYA can't be too extreme..

Where should surplus & accumulated Funds from ARYA & State Council Subscriptions & Membership Fees be better channelled?

Supporting & Promoting the Hobby of Radio Sailing both Locally & Nationally.. ???

John

Wargames · Member

Hi I understand the issues are complex, but it is the right of everyone to choose and make thier own decisions. So, if you want to sail R/C boats and you want to sail with a few like minded people you do this, there is not a requirement to join any organization, ARYA included. You mention the Mawson Lakes group, they formed by building a few boats in a shed, blokes together doing something they enjoy, so build the boat sail the boat....no organization really needed. They are one aspect of the sport. If you want to race an internationally class then you make your mind up and do so, but you need to join ARYA. I really don,t see what the beef is about.....if you don,t like the people or the organization then don,t join and get your own group together..and go sailing, if the group gets big the form a Association ....have I missed something ?

waboats · Senior Member

Maverick wrote:

A very dear friend of mine, one Steve Crewes, once said to me, that no matter what the circumstances, "if you get two yachts on the water at the same time, you will have a race!" And I have found this to be so true! The race may be informal, but mark my words, you WILL have a race! And that is the enjoyable part of this hobby/sport, that I love!

We don't need the ARYA to have this sort of fun!

All we need John, as you stated earlier, is that a group of friends get together, and sail for the fun of it. The rest takes care of itself!

Don

I think this is exactly the Foundations of ARYA.. A group of friends getting together after building their boats & having a friendly sail & some racing.

They had no choice back then & Boats were mostly Backyard built over many months. People took pride in their craft & it stayed with them for many years.

I think the ARYA style has lost its' way & needs to get back to some simplicity & start to accept all facets of the hobby.

Several Clubs have dropped out of the Ranking Event system & leave events to be run by other clubs. Not all stick to the accepted classes & some do their own thing. These are some of the successful ones

Was it the last Radio Waves where the club description was Mawson Lakes in SA.. http://www.mawsonlakesmyc.com/

Not an IOM in plain sight.. Reading more of the website it seems like they have it sorted for their needs..

My guess is that if Clubs were able to include other classes whether they be the accepted 4 or lesser known variety that you would find new members would be encouraged into clubs.

In some ways we need to get back to the Basics & let people do their own thing without the constant reference to Rules, Regulations, Restrictions, and Limitation on what is considered an acceptable yacht.

Big or Small, Racing or Not, & as you say; a group of friends getting together, and sail for the fun of it. The rest takes care of itself!

Cheers

John

Maverick · Guru

I don't consider radio yachting as a just a hobby John. I do also consider it to be a valid sport.

And my approach is, is that there is room for both applications, or interests, in this area.

The big barrier to this, is that most clubs are geared to competition, whilst those who just love to see the grace of a beautiful yacht under full sail, just for the beautiful image it provides, are not catered for, under the existing structure of radio yachting in this country!

There are exceptions of course, and my past experience with the Lilydale Radio sailing Club is the most positive experience I have encountered in club form during my time in this hobby/sport. This club caters for, or did when I was a member, members with all types of boats. For those who chose to race, there was a handicap system, that they used, that was the best I have ever come across. And the geniality of the members to interested parties was unbelievable. They were not at that time affiliated with the ARYA as the ARYA rules did not fit in with this clubs objectives! And this was, and probably, still is a most successful club!

And this club is, to me, the epitome, of what is possible to attract new members to this sport, or hobby!

There is a very fine distinction between hobby and sport.

A very dear friend of mine, one Steve Crewes, once said to me, that no matter what the circumstances, "if you get two yachts on the water at the same time, you will have a race!" And I have found this to be so true! The race may be informal, but mark my words, you WILL have a race! And that is the enjoyable part of this hobby/sport, that I love!

We don't need the ARYA to have this sort of fun!

All we need John, as you stated earlier, is that a group of friends get together, and sail for the fun of it. The rest takes care of itself!

waboats · Senior Member

Don

I think what you will find is that the basis of the Hobby is entrenched in retired Big Boat Sailors that think they are "still" at an elite level within society. Not that they ever were...

They answer to no one other than other that think the same way.

As you say this is a Hobby... Both Building & Sailing what in all observations is a scale like replica of a bigger yacht.

Stand Off scale mind you... (Way Off) blankstare

Unfortunately the ARYA position is this is a SPORT... And a win at all cost mentality..

I don't consider it a sport but a hobby & something to pass the time. So I dion't fit the mould.. I would much prefer to sail a boat & finish last having enjoyed the day rather than spit venom & insults at anybody that crosses my path on the water..

If it was only that the words were confined to the water & out of earshot of bystanders. Even with all this talk of codes of conduct & limiting the wordplay at lake side I don't think the current Classes lend themselves to encouraging Newcomers into the hobby.

Far too expensive to consider paying out such dollars on a whim & a suck it & see. Even secondhand boats are astronomical in price.

My poor little MM is in my opinion over-priced when considering what you can import one for.. But still a good option for the newcomer who wants to learn slowly & without the argy bargy of stiff competitions. Granted some of the MM's are a bit beyond the Basic Kit & I tend to have mixed emotions on that. But I do think that some self regulating modifications is happening with many skippers (arya ones included).

I got the Ready to Run Version of the MM landed in OZ from the UK for under $400 (Electronics included). Locally couldn't get an answer on supply..

The One glaring Fault I see is that there simply isn't any Promotion of the Hobby at any level. Pretty much left to individuals to run displays & demonstrations whenever the opportunity arises.

The ISAF Regatta was pretty much kept in house within the RSAWA Committee & little went to the grass roots members. It got swept away with indifference.. I should take a few MM's down but I know I wouldn't be welcome so they will stay in drydock waiting for the next booked displays in April & June.

Too much Politics & Power Chasing at so many levels that the same minority of individuals are seek power & position over the same minority group.

The situation in WA is Dire with one club boasting a membership on the RSAWA committee of 60% or more. Double, Triple, & Quadruple Club Memberships puts paid to an impartial voting system.

Don't dare ask why the Subscriptions are not being charged & paid as per the constitution. You'll get every avoidance trick in the book & eventually the standard Run Hide & Avoid.

Been in this Hobby for 40+ years, Radio Sailing less.. Can't say I would or could honestly recommend Radio Sailing as a good way to enjoy an afternoon. Too Stressful & I'm more inclined to want to deal with the loud obnoxious ones in a different way..

1st Warning Penalty Turn,

2nd Disqualification,

3rd Tad Da, Pack Up & come back later, (we'll wait until your gone before starting another race if necessary)

4th I would suspend for 2 weeks racing & place on probation at level 3 for 3 months.

5th If that didn't cure the problem then a Suspension for 6 Months & you come back in at level 3 for 6 months probation.

And to show I was serious I would make them a carry-over. .

Sailing a Boat with friends now that is a completely different outcome..

Cheers

John

-- Edited by waboats on Monday 5th of December 2011 10:53:45 PM