model yachting Australia - including d'12metre radio yacht forums

Maverick · Guru

RE: Opinions needed on the best way to get a complete newbie into this sport!

Gesst · Veteran Member

Taz, I won't answer your question directly as I have never owned a Victoria but owning a Thunder Tiger ETNZ 1 metre boat and believing the quality to be similar. If you go to the "radio control" section of ebay and there search for "yacht" you will find several boats on offer, the Thunder Tigers seem to run out at about the $200 mark plus postage. There are very good online sailing hobby shops that sell the bits and pieces required to upgrade the boats to something more durable. Two that are good are

https://www.radioyachtsuppliesaustralia.com/index.php

and

http://radiosailingshop.com.au/

To find out what bits require replacing may I suggest that you find someone near you that has any of these types of boat and see how they modded them. Usually it involves replacing the rigging with wire and installing turn buckles maybe also improve the waterproofing and replace some of the deck hardware where the rigging attaches.

Harry

taz666 · Member

So you would recommend the Victoria as a good entry level boat.

What would the Total Cost be to make it a good sailing boat. I assume you mean changes to the kit & sails are required. What would these cost & where could you get the parts to make it all happen easily.

R

Maverick · Guru

I too, have passed a Victoria on!

It was the second boat I ever assembled! A very versatile and high quality product, capable of sailing in many wind and surface water conditions!

Standard radio set servo's capable of controlling the rudder, but a stronger servo recommended for the sails.

And speaking of sails, the standard ones would need to be replaced very early in the piece.

waboats · Senior Member

Harry & Mav

I think the secret to RTR Model Yachts is that they "MUST" be capable of being modified to bring it to a standard that allows them to sail in a variety of conditions & wind strengths.

Being reasonably cheap to purchase they provide a taste of what might be possible & sets a foundation to what may come next.

But without the ability to be modified realively easily then they become very frustrating when the limits are found. especially if there isn't the scope for a reasonable wind range the boat can be used in.

Even the Micro Magic Class realise that Modifcations are an inevitable consequence of a smaller yacht designed more towards the Hobby Sailing than a Racer..

Taker the "Victoria" as one example. A pretty good learner boat & sails reasonably well.

But with simple modiciations it has become a Racing Class in its own right.

http://sites.google.com/site/classvictoria1/

I built one many years ago & sailed it quite happily outside the franetic IOM Club Racing. Once the MM Mk2 came along the Boat was passed on ($0) to a fellow club member who continued to use it. blankstare

John

Maverick · Guru

An interesting point you make Harry, about the quality of fittings!

I guess, that is where I differed from the RTR boats, in that I bought the kits, but then assembled the the rest as per personal choice.

And I don't see why the RTR's cannot be modified the same way. Yes, that increases the costs, but you get a reliable boat!

And finally friends, I wish you all, and your families, A very Merry Christmas!

Don

Gesst · Veteran Member

Seasons greetings to all,

When I said I had an Oceanus 60 and a Century 750 please let me be quite clear that these are not my only boats, nor were they my first boats. My first boat was and still is a Marblehead built out of carbon fibre from a mold that was home designed and built followed by a one metre boat also from a home designed and built mold. Off course now I also have the three EC12's to add to the stable. In that regard I too have always had "quality" boats, the oceanus and the century could have been quality boats had they had maybe a tad more money spent on them to get quality fittings and finish, but then I guess thay would have missed their price point by a wide margin and narrowed their potential customer base.

Harry

waboats · Senior Member

Wargames wrote:
Hi Interesting to note that maverick started with good boats, I also started that way......so how did we both make the choice to buy good boats...this maybe part of the answer, how do people know what is good or not, where do you get the advice.....

Ron

It is good that you managed to get the support & find a good Boat Class that suited your entry into Radio Sailing.

I think that new people will come mostly from a Sailing Background & who have some idea about how it all works.

Hobby Shops simply can't cater for the Novice & I think the Failings are mostly down to the elitism that has evolved in the last 10 years or so.

Second hand Boats & Superseeded designs being priced in the Thousands of Dollars is taking this Hobby/Sport out of the reach of most people. Where does it all end.

And those that control the administration seem to agree with over-inflating prices.. Keeps the value in a second-hand boat & then they can buy the latest & greatest.

What is the Depreciation of a Radio Control Yacht... 1% pa (if that) with lots of wear & tear under its' belt.

And there really isn't any commitment to proiding a simple entry into the hobby/sport.

To classify it as a Sport there must be some form of Organisation... Which unfortunately falls to ARYA as the Parent Body to oversee & channel the effective promotion as a Valid Sport.

Hobby well that is down to those that have a passsion for sailing for fun & enjoyment at the lake.

To see the difference you simply have to visit the forums that love to discuss the RULES & where the outcomes shoud be clear & concise.

Rarely many contributors to discussions when THE SPORT angle is involved. Simply most don't even understand the rules by which they play & would simply prefer to Bluff & Bully their way around a cource.. Not a big boat so there are no consequences involved.

Wargames · Member

Hi Interesting to note that maverick started with good boats, I also started that way......so how did we both make the choice to buy good boats...this maybe part of the answer, how do people know what is good or not, where do you get the advice.....my first boat was an old Marbelhead, I made the choice based on my budget at the time and advice to buy a cheaper starter boat to see if the hobby, sport was for me........did you see that sailing, big boats and dinghys rates as the 30th ranked sport in Australia....so sailing is far from mainstream ....radio sailing has a long way to go.the boats are slow and don,t make a nice car roar or do skids.....not much appeal to young people......and we all speak a very strange laugage, and I have never had a hobby shop boat, so still another experience to look forward to.

Maverick · Guru

Hmmmm, thank you both, John, and especially to you Harry, for your own personal experiences, for your comments!

I do understand what you say...

Perhaps, I do need to do some more thinking!

Maybe more by luck, than anything else, I have had the fortune to always have had good quality boats to start with, and that may have coloured my opinions somewhat! See how easy it is, for people to form opinions, not always right, without the benefit of positive discussion forums'.

Just goes to show, we need opinions! We need personal experiences! We need people to be able to speak about their experiences.

Thank you again gentlemen, for your input!

Gesst · Veteran Member

Ok Mav,
Here goes, I have an Oceanus 60 (60cm) and a Century 750 while the boats in general is not too badly made they have some serious flaws. The first one I think is common to all of these RTR style of boats and that is they all use parcel string for the rigging setup. On the Oceanus the formers are made out masonite and are not painted or otherwise waterproofed and as you know, water and masonite do not go well together, at least not for any length of time. Sails are just adequate, but then I expect that from a product that is made by someone that doesn't sail and sells them as a toy mainly through internet retail outlets or toyshops. Deck fittings are generally too weak and flimsy to survive for too long. As previously mentioned the use of material other than lead makes them all a bit on the tender side, previously mentioned, lead may no longer be the norm for hull appendages but surely they can make the bulb a bit bigger to make a slightly stiffer boat.

My feeling is that these boats are not meant to last for a long time but merely to first make a sale for the retailer by the use of pretty graphics and low prices and maybe, just maybe whet the appetite of someone that will ditch the cheapy and move on to something more durable and better built using decent fittings and rigging. I believe that these boats unless they are accepted into the mainstream model yacht club will possibly cause the loss of more potential members than all the politicking and ARYA shenanigans combined. The person will lost to model sailing because of the bad taste the cheap nasty little boat left in his hip pocket. With care and nurturing these people could be retained as club mates and members and would be a perfect outlet for those older boats that are now languishing in sheds around the country and be given a new lease on life by swelling the ranks of the C grade division.

waboats · Senior Member

Mav

There are so many that have come & gone... That to single one out wouldn't be right.

I remember they made a Cat about 600mm in length (Not the Gemini) . Came as part of a seriers of boats that were prone to come apart at the deck. Fluoro Yellow, Orange & Lime green... The slightest puff of breeze & it was over. Sunk mine twice before it finally gave itself to Neptune bleh

Probably some of the latest offerings would be easier to track down. And not such a disaster to make a mistake on.

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__14835__Discovery_500_RC_Sailboat_Ready_to_Run_.html

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__18223__Turnigy_610mm_Fiberglass_Racing_Yacht_Sailboat_ARTR.html

Don't get me wrong. Not all are tarred with the same brush.. My concern is to make them any way acceptable they need lots of modifications. Which in the long term cost you dollars & defeats the purpose of a RTR.

And having no knowledge in Radio Sail Boats the Newbie wouldn't know where to start with Mods..

So the support Network in my opinion is there in the Scale Boast Clubs where competition isn't the only desire.

The only way to find a Club/Group is to ask around & keep an eye out at the lakes for people playing with boats.

Cheers

John

Maverick · Guru

PS: To my previous post!

I would never dare to be the sole judge of what is good and what is bad.

So John, once you submit to me the name of the very worst case of these inadequate RTR boats, that you have spoken about, so strongly, it will not only be I, that reviews them. I will get at least two other disinterested sailors to also give me their views, and I will publish all three views, sans interference.

And Gesst, I throw out the same testing criteria to you too! Let me know the worst example of your experience. I think this is good for all to know.

Too often, people come across products that do not meet their requirements. And there is no problem, legal or otherwise, about stating the factual rwesults of their observations.

Where people run into trouble with the law is, when they make unsubstantiated comments about a suppliers product! that is a dicky area. But if observations are recorded factually, as in a review of actual experience, then there is no problem with litigation, even though some less reputable companies will try to make you think there is.

Never, in the English, system of justice, has anyone, ever, been convicted of a crime as a result of stating facts!

To me, as a novice in this field, the most important information I could possibly come across, is, if a product has been found lacking, based on an objective opinion, and that knowledge has then been made public!

Please everybody, just tell it like it is! No harm will come to you from telling the truth, and on the other hand, you may very well be doing your best friends harm, by not letting them know when something is wrong!

I once, personally, took on the might of the TNT transport organisation, and criticised them for damage done to a boat I was getting delivered. And I publicly stated the facts on my forum! Nothing ever came of that, as I could prove my comments! Do not, ever, be intimidated, by those who would cause you to give up your rights!

Maverick · Guru

waboats wrote:
Mav
My concerns with RTR Boats is the lack of support that is out there to help people new to the Hobby.
Aftercare service just isn't there & the Knowledge on boats is pretty much lost.
So it's off to the Internet & hope we find something reasonable..
If the Initial RTR Boat is costly & doesn't perform to the expectations then we have usually lost the person to something else.
My suggestion would be for Totally New to Radio Sailing should perhaps start with Model Scale Boat Clubs.
Most have a varietry of Yachts & are keen to help people get into the hobby. RTR Boats aren't as lost as they can be on their own & because competition is usually a secondary thing the welcome is a lot more genuine.
Maybe we need to learn from the past & start building a future based on the foundation values. Include & Encourage anything ..

Problem is John, the complete newbie, will not have any idea of what sort of clubs exist, where they are, and, or, how welcome he, or she, will be made.

I totally agree about the lack of support for the complete newbie!

And I will repeat, yet,once again, that, that is exactly why I set up my website, and the forum!

And on another point, and quite contrary to your continued criticisms, I have heard some favourable reports about what you refer to as 'these cheap Chinese imports'.

I am prepared to purchase one of these boats, just to satisfy myself, one way or the other, as to their suitability for the introfuction of a newbie into this fantastic sport. Perhaps, if you could indicate to me, the very worst case example of what you have come across, in this genre of boats, that you find so unsuitable, then, that is the one I will purchase, and provide an unbiased and impartial opinion as to how it meets, or does not, the needs of the complete newbie to this sport!

I look forward to the substantiation of your previous comments!

waboats · Senior Member

Mav

My concerns with RTR Boats is the lack of support that is out there to help people new to the Hobby. Most Hobby Shops have one interest & that is to make a profit. Aftercare service just isn't there & the Knowledge on boats is pretty much lost. Model Boats just aren't profitable so the stock is always low in Quantity & Quality

So it's off to the Internet & hope we find something reasonable..

The AfterCare service cmes down to those of us that sail our boats @ social outings.

If the Initial RTR Boat is costly & doesn't perform to the expectations then we have usually lost the person to something else.

My suggestion would be for Totally New to Radio Sailing should perhaps start with Model Scale Boat Clubs. Most have a varietry of Yachts & are keen to help people get into the hobby. RTR Boats aren't as lost as they can be on their own & because competition is usually a secondary thing the welcome is a lot more genuine.

Steve Arthur's group in SA is an example as are the Benalla (Vic) Group http://www.wix.com/davidgee2/benallamodelboatgroup Ellenbrook here in WA & several others around the traps.

Bob's link to the group in Queensland & you start to see a pattern. Almost anything is welcome & everybody seems to be having a good time of it.

Looking back into the 1960's & we see similar beginnings to what we now call ARYA..

Maybe we need to learn from the past & start building a future based on the foundation values. Include & Encourage anything ..

-- Edited by waboats on Saturday 17th of December 2011 10:04:12 PM

Maverick · Guru

Oops! You are right Harry!

Lead shot is banned in Victoria, but only for duck shooting, and there are exceptions. Below is a post from the DSE website.

'Non-toxic shot

Can lead shot be used to hunt ducks in Victoria?
Generally, only non-toxic shot may be used to hunt ducks in Victoria. However, there is an exemption to this regulation for hunters using muzzle loading, Damascus steel or twist-barrelled shotguns.'

But I do wonder, how long it will be, before non-toxic ammunition becomes the rule, rather than the exception, as people's increased awareness of environmental pollution escalates.

Gesst · Veteran Member

At the moment lead shot is still being used in commercial shotshells and is still able to be bought from gun shops for home reloading, in the US it is banned and they are using steel shot. If you think that this is also likely to happen here in Australia in the near future then my advice would be to lay in a good supply now while you still can or go and raid the local tyre shop for cast off wheel weights.

Harry

Maverick · Guru

waboats wrote:
Have to say I'm not a great fan of RTR Sailboats.
Mostly the Lead Bulb isn't lead at all & is usually some lump of Pig Iron. There doesn't seem to be the R&D put into considering what makes a Sailboat Sail.
By the time Modifications are done the cost are increased quite a lot & maybe more than what a reasonable boat would cost in the first place. A Bad experience with a Dodgy RTR or no access to upgrade parts & there is a disaster waiting to happen.
A list of RTR's & any Modifications needed could be helpful.

Rather a negative post, but still appropriate as to present one's point of view, and people DO need to be aware of the negative elements of activities, so that they may be addressed as resources, or attitudes permit!

One thing I might say, is that in the future, pig iron will probably become the standard material for bulbs. Lead is gradually being phased out in nearly all activities, in which the environment may be potentially affected. One example of this, is that lead shot, has now for a number of years, been made illegal to use in shotguns.

And I agree, a dodgy experience right from the start will probably turn the person of the sport they are interested in. And this includes sports like cycling, where a cheap shodilly built bicycle will probably put the user of bicycling, for life!

Maverick · Guru

Gesst wrote:
I agree that an off the shelf ready to sail boat is probably the best option for most people to try and then later maybe upgrade. I have several boats, some of which are Chinese rubbish and certainly not worth the dollars that were spent on them. Having said that I also have a Thunder Tiger 1 meter ETNZ, while it is a lot better quality than the Chinese ones, it too can still do with a bit of improvement like upgrading the rigging to wire and having some turnbuckles along with decent deck hardware.

Clubs certainly will have to moderate their thinking if they want any hope of existing into the future, one way to achieve this is by having a "Run what ya brung" class of boats. If clubs insist on promoting only the classes they are interested in then they face certain death as there are many other pastimes competing for the consumer dollar. By having this "open" class it can be thought of as a nursery for up and coming skippers and allow them to be taught by people that the genuine interests of the club at heart. The racing rules of sailing can be quite complex and daunting, the middle of your first regatta is not the place to try and learn them when other skippers are trying to intimidate you by yelling arcane phrases and commands at you.

One other major source of annoyance to me is the total lack of interest and understanding by the local hobby and toy shops, meaning that just about everything has to be bought off the net and when you are a real newbie that too is a very daunting task as you have no idea what you are actually buying if it is the right or wrong bit that you thought you were buying.

Many true statements here Gesst!

Whilst the Chinese boats may leave a lot to be desired in terms of rigging and equipment, they are more than capable though, I think, to fire up the interest of someone completely new to the sport.

And then imagine the excitement and sense of achievement that this newbie will then get, as he or she, starts upgrading the boats, as they get more skills! And then the buzz, when they can fully, and consistently, control the boat to their satisfaction!

And there are already clubs around that encourage the "Run what ya brung" class of boats. But unless there is a support sutructure such as WABOATS mentioned, there is every chance this newcomer will never fully realise just what this sport is capable of!

Maverick · Guru

waboats wrote:
I suppose the simplest answer is the persons needs, wants & resources have to be considered before even deciding on a recommendation.
Class of Boat will always be determined by the Club not the person making the jump to Radio Sailing.
My feeling is there should be a support network, willing to assist newcomers regardless of whether they are an ARYA Club member or not & regardless of the Class being sailed.
Forums are a great tool for this when used properly.

_________________________________________________________

Hi WABOATS, my comments if I may.

Sentence one! Yes, these points are certainly relevant, but if someone just wants to get a boat in the water, just to see if they will like the sport, then I think my recommendation still meets this condition.

Sentence two! True, if getting into competition. Irrelevant if just sailing with friends, or a free choice club!

Sentence three! That is what I have always been trying to establish. When I found I was on my own when I started in this sport, there was absolutely no source of support anywhere. I was left entirely to my own devices.

Sentence four! Again, that was my intention when I set up these forums' many many years ago!

Wargames · Member

Hi I would list the TS 16 model.....steveArther

waboats · Senior Member

Have to say I'm not a great fan of RTR Sailboats.

Mostly the Lead Bulb isn't lead at all & is usually some lump of Pig Iron. There doesn't seem to be the R&D put into considering what makes a Sailboat Sail.

By the time Modifications are done the cost are increased quite a lot & maybe more than what a reasonable boat would cost in the first place. A Bad experience with a Dodgy RTR or no access to upgrade parts & there is a disaster waiting to happen.

In some ways the only place you will get proper Guidance is from the people who have done it all before & learnt the mistakles the hard way.

Been stung too many times in the past to guide people to any RTR's available at the moment. Hobby Shops have no expertise in Boats & they are in it to make money. So once it leaves the shop then the purchaser is on their own..

My LHO owner was once the treasurer for WA Model Boat Club.. He has Zero ideas when it comes to what makes a good sailboat. Or even a reasonable one... But he's quite happy to seel you whatever you want, so he can make a profit & feed his family.

A list of RTR's & any Modifications needed could be helpful.

Cheers

John

Gesst · Veteran Member

Hi all,

I agree with Don that an off the shelf ready to sail boat is probably the best option for most people to try and then later maybe upgrade. I have several boats, some of which are Chinese rubbish and certainly not worth the dollars that were spent on them. Having said that I also have a Thunder Tiger 1 meter ETNZ, while it is a lot better quality than the Chinese ones, it too can still do with a bit of improvement like upgrading the rigging to wire and having some turnbuckles along with decent deck hardware. If you are prepared to that then as Don has said you have a boat that are actually proud to be seen with and can have a lot of fun sailing, oops, nearly forgot, in my opinion the ETNZ needs a slightly larger lump of lead on the bottom as it is a little on the tender side.

Clubs certainly will have to moderate their thinking if they want any hope of existing into the future, one way to achieve this is by having a "Run what ya brung" class of boats. If clubs insist on promoting only the classes they are interested in then they face certain death as there are many other pastimes competing for the consumer dollar. By having this "open" class it can be thought of as a nursery for up and coming skippers and allow them to be taught by people that the genuine interests of the club at heart. The racing rules of sailing can be quite complex and daunting, the middle of your first regatta is not the place to try and learn them when other skippers are trying to intimidate you by yelling arcane phrases and commands at you.

One other major source of annoyance to me is the total lack of interest and understanding by the local hobby and toy shops, meaning that just about everything has to be bought off the net and when you are a real newbie that too is a very daunting task as you have no idea what you are actually buying if it is the right or wrong bit that you thought you were buying.

waboats · Senior Member

Mav

I suppose the simplest answer is the persons needs, wants & resources have to be considered before even deciding on a recommendation.

Class of Boat will always be determined by the Club not the person making the jump to Radio Sailing.

My feeling is there should be a support network, willing to assist newcomers regardless of whether they are an ARYA Club member or not & regardless of the Class being sailed.

No Class regardless of origins should be discussed of in a negative fashion. Each to Their Own as they say. The discussion shoud be lead by the person interested in having a go. And provide them with realistic & achievable options. Limiting to a $5000 Boat to begin with is a recipe for disaster in my opinion.

Encourage & Include and from there maybe 1% will take the plunge.

Because of the low returns on your efforts we shouldn't be discouraged into NOT assisting where we can. Granted we may not have the time at the drop of a hat but pass on contact details & encourage a later sharing of information.

Forums are a great tool for this when used properly.

John

Maverick · Guru

I recently had an enquiry from a parent, who obviously likes this sport, and who wanted a recommendation on what to buy, in kit form, or otherwise, for two pre-teen boys.

My response was as follows:

From my own personal experience, in getting involved in this hobby, and having absolutely no previous experience, with yachts, either model, or real, I made the mistake of buying a small kit boat. (An Victor Models America3, length of 24" - 60cm ). Building was no problem, but sailing it was extremely difficult, whenever there was any sort of a stiff breeze. As yachts do not have motors, their control depends entirely upon the skill of the sailor. Sailing skills which at that time, I did not have. I did have model building skills, having built model aeroplanes in my youth and my early thirties! But sailing skills... absolutely none. And I had nowhere to turn to to acquire those skills, and that is why some years later I set up my website.

I had some terrible times trying to sail that boat. But on the odd, rare, occasion that it sailed well, it won my heart. And I got hooked on this sport! I have rambled on here a little, I was already a mature adult when I became interested in this hobby. And it maybe took a little longer than I would have liked, to learn the basic rules. But your sons, being XXX and XXX, would be of a perfect age to quickly pick up the finer points of sailing.

One thing I will say, is that the smaller the boat, the harder it is to sail well, and the less tolerant it is when the breeze starts to whip up a little. And the kits these days, are quite expensive when compared to the RTR ( Ready To Run ) boats available these days.

If you are determined to go for the smallest kit boat available, I can only recommend the Micro Magic, but it is not an easy kit boat to build, and by the time it is equipped with good equipment, it can become quite expensive. And sailing it, with the standard sail set, could be quite challenging when there is a bit of a breeze.

Bottom line for a newbie into this hobby? I would recommend an RTR boat of about 1 metre in length. It will work out cheaper than a kit boat, will be easier to sail, and will look spectacular enough, for your sons to be proud to be seen with them!

All standard yachts, only need two channel radio equipment. One channel is used to let the sails in and out, and the other channel is used for the rudder. That's it!

My personal passion is the 12-metre boats, for even the biggest ones, only need 12" or 300mm of water depth in which to sail. And their hulls, truly are, works of art. Oh, I have serious competition boats too, that I rarely sail, simply because I do not see the beauty in them that I see in the 12-metres, and the 10-rater I have needs deep water because of the length of its keel.

But this is only one point of view. This forum needs more constructive comments on how to encourage people like this interested parent, to embrace our fantastic sport! This person is the future of radio yachting in our country! Without people like this, there will be no future!

All constructive comments, and opinions much appreciated!