model yachting Australia - including d'12metre radio yacht forums

Members Login
Username 
 
Password 
    Remember Me  
Post Info TOPIC: Australian EC12 Rating Rules


Veteran Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 42
Date:
Australian EC12 Rating Rules


Rather than get into historic matters - the easy way as I finished in my last post is said again - EC12's are EC12's no matter what - so in finishing - Invite and they will come!

Even so called 1 design classes can be tweaked and modified in subtle ways.

For any class to be one design the rules are simple - what is produced at the build cannot be changed - I don't believe this happens anywhere as each person has their own little tweak they think makes their boat that little bit quicker.

__________________
Chris
Kapiti Coast, NZL
EC12's NZL1, 110, 128


Senior Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 315
Date:

Now Maverick the question to you is : is the gentleman's agreement known to you and what exactly does it say and is it written down or do we all take it on trust? If we all take it on trust , then we don't need any rules, because we are all Gentlemen? Is this what it is all about?

 Please Explain?


__________________


Senior Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 315
Date:

Well I must say I had much trouble reading this post. I had trouble coming to grips with it in fact. I think it was the terminalogy of it , mainly. I was having trouble with you saying we flopped the EC12 originally? Well you were quite wrong there for we got it off Mr Black at Treasure Tooling and a specially made heavy hull (was made) so we could take a plug off it, for Australia's use. This was told to Treasure Tooling before hand. Unlike a certain other country who were into the "art" of flops.

I had further trouble understanding the terminology of the later part of the post as well for the "Gentlemen's Agreement" suddenly became the "Spoken Word Agreement". You see straight away I'm questioning whether we are taking about the same agreement? And I was in all sorts of trouble finding the "pinched bow" in the rules. Or it might have been in the GA or SWA, for all I know.

You see folks, this is where one -design rules comes unstuck, when we all start talking about different things . Here is the very case in fact. In the last post where he was talking about heavy & light displacements to reflect conditions. I can tell you that this doesn't go towards a one design class. It points to a developement class.

And lastly , in my last visit to my measureing tape , I failed to note where the "Knats Whisker" was on the rule. Another good point about "Gentlemans Agreements", perhaps.

For those who were counting on a ONE-DESIGN, may have to wait a tiny bit longer. So where does the club sailor fit in to all these "agreements" . Well, He misses out of course, it becomes like a 'closed shop', for these types of agreement are not written down.

Perhaps someone could ask if you can point us in the direction where we can see these "agreements" where the "barndoor" rudder, Lead blob on the jib boom  or the balsa -wooden decks were introduced?  And who were the gentlemen involved in these agreements?

 My mind goes back to the 83' America's cup where Liberty , it turns out, kept changing his ballast , that someone asked were they racing one twelve metre or 9. And here the same thing is being practiced again under the rules of One- Design "Gentlemen's Agreements". I know in this country , we felt we were being "got at" and the old feeling is returning.

Henry


-- Edited by Henry at 10:47, 2008-01-15

__________________


Veteran Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 42
Date:

As an "interested party" and one who has competed in an event where the "gentlemans agreement" was very prevelant and relevant I offer a few words and thoughts from NZ.

The NZ boats are now being made from the current US95 approved mould. The previous "version" is probably about 99% the same.

The "current" AUS manufactured boats are from long since discarded variations on the original where the "pinched bow" was prevelant, which I understand came about from flop after flop from originals in the late 70's and early 80's.

The NZ class rule has not changed in relation to measuremnt for many years - the early boats (same shape as AUS) still ahd the same max waterline lenght and when the hull shape changed here in the early 90's they were grandfathered - BUT still need to maintain a max LWL.
The current rules here and in the US have amax and min LWL which allows skippers to build the finished boat within a weight range that is pretty small. IN fact alot of travelling US skippers have a heavy and lioght ballast to reflect condictions for where they may be competing at the time BUT still within the min and max LWL.

I have read the proposal for AUS and submitted comments as "interested parties" were invited to do. An email back to me discarded any comments or suggestions offerd and I was deemed to not be an "interested party" as I was outside of AUS.

Mav's comments re the gentlemanly nature are correct between the current EC12 Execs in NZ, USA and AUS where we regularly communictae and discuss exactly what Mav has said above - i.e. bring it and you can sail.

IMO the proposed change to a weight system after 25+ years of LWL is a simplistic and dictatorila apporach being made by those not involved in the class and are not truly aware of the history of how and why the LWL is used. I may be wrong about some of that but stand by the simplistic comment 1000%.

When I am over there in May for the AUS nationals in Brisbane (at least 3 of us have booked and paid for tickets so far) I am of non doubt that there will not be any issues of a them and us type of boat scenario as we have previously discussed with the organiser GT the "gentlemans agreement" aspect of the sailing.

The sail plans are 100% the same, the OA hull length is the same (+/- a few mm of course), the weights are within a knats whisker and the LWL (old measurements folks) are the same.

As we saw in Nelson 2006 when 3 UAS boats came over as well as 2 fromt he US (another skipper borrowed a local boat) and 1 fromt he UK (US hall and measured) the older AUS boats still faired well and beat boats from NZ, and UK. The yanks were just damn good!!!!

Likewise in 2009 when we venture with our boats to the US for the next "worlds" we will be welcomed without a written "gentlemans agreement" but the spoken word agreemnt will prevail as in the past.

A lot of words but the conclusion is Henry - EC12's are EC12's no matter what - so in finishing - Invite and they will come!



__________________
Chris
Kapiti Coast, NZL
EC12's NZL1, 110, 128


Senior Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 315
Date:

Well one can only hope!


__________________


Guru

Status: Offline
Posts: 518
Date:

Hmmmmmm, Henry, I take your point regarding the "Gentleman's Agreement", regarding international competition, but I'm not sure it is doomed to failure. It has I believe been demonstrated to work very amiably and capably and with great success in recent past regattas'.

But I do think that having a set of published rules for any competing country is only fair, so that each country knows what they are competing against, and that there aren't any surprises when everyone turns up on day one of the regatta, having travelled internationally to get there.

I must confess that I am most impressed by the trust and the good nature of everybody that has competed in the EC12 international regatta's to date.

However, I cannot help but think unless us Aussies do get a set of rules published well before the next international, that the patience of the boys from the USA and NZ might start to get tested a tad. And with good reason.

I'm just keeping my fingers crossed that the rumours about the ARYA publishing a set of rules will prove to be well founded, and even more than that, that the rules will be, within reason, compatible with those of the USA and NZ.

I can but hope.


__________________
Maverick
Model Yachting - The Only Way To Go!
Secret Alias - Don Leitis


Senior Member

Status: Offline
Posts: 315
Date:

MMMMMMMMMMM a bit hard to give you a "constructive" comment there Mav!

 First , the "Gentleman's Agreement" is doomed to failure,  the first time it goes under scruteny. Basically because with most of those sorts of agreements have this little problem of that they're not written down and every country has there own version on what took place or their idea of what the agreement actually ment??

The Idea of a one design , just means that . The biggest problem is that a lot of people try to make One -Design complicated and the basic concept is that it is not complicated because they are all the same.

 Arriving at dimensions is not a magnatory thing in One -Design, as long as all the boats turnout the same in shape and size. And it doesn't matter to the owners on the actual size if all the boats come from a Authorized Manufacturer.

 Where the problems come in is with "people" want to change the One -Design. (most times) in little ways. Now the National Authoritys should resist these little changes.

 In the Early days, the Changes of the boat were taken with the class before it became a nationalized class. The class was under (like the Nautic 12s are now) and the American went to Balsa decks & barndoor rudders. The Kiwis went for a blob of lead on the jib boom. The Australians went for moving the mast infront of the deck dam, Etc. Now the point I'm making is that while these things are only little departures in themselves they all add up to changing the design AWAY from the One-Design concept.

 Now Mav, in order to keep this one-design true , where you don't have to have "gentlemaan's agreement" and other such (unworkable ) luxurys, where EVERYONE knows the rules , for they are written (in English) for all to see.

Henry 


__________________


Guru

Status: Offline
Posts: 518
Date:

I have now heard from three separate, unrelated parties, over a period of about 3-4 weeks, rumours to the effect that the ARYA are about to release a new set of Australian EC12 Class Rules.

If this is true, then may I say, dare it be hoped that the Aussie rules will be in line with the USA and NZ Rules?

I do believe there exists an "Gentleman's Agreement" between the international EC12 organisations, to the effect that when international competitions are held, that any boat registered with its own National body, in accordance with that National body's rules, will be eligible to compete in international competions, irrespective of any rules differences between any individual countries or nations. 

This is to me, an example of the highest degree of cooperation that I have ever witnessed or observed in any sport, and is I believe, in my experiences to date, something unique to the sailors of EC12's. I have to date not seen anything comparable in the radio yachting world of this degree of cooperation, apart from the Micro Magic boats. And that is a separate issue of course.

My dread is that, despite the positive approach to the rules, and if indeed as rumoured, boat weight is the criteria, is that if the Aussie rules do not specify boat or deck or waterline dimensions, then that will signify the end of EC12 manufacturing in this country, as the manufacturers will have no guidelines to work to when they are building their molds.

I absolutely and totally support the concept a boat's weight being the criteria of its eligibility to compete in club or national titles, provided the hull and deck have been manufactured by an approved manufacturer, but if no hull, or waterline, or beam measurements are specified in the rules, who is going to build new boats? A manufacturer will have no  guidance, and therefore no incentive to provide new hulls.

And as I have stated before, I personally believe the ability to provide brand spanking new hulls is absolutely essential to the survival of the EC12 in Australia.

Whew!..... Constructive comments appreciated. 


__________________
Maverick
Model Yachting - The Only Way To Go!
Secret Alias - Don Leitis
«First  <  1 2 | Page of 2  sorted by
 
Quick Reply

Please log in to post quick replies.

Tweet this page Post to Digg Post to Del.icio.us


Create your own FREE Forum
Report Abuse
Powered by ActiveBoard