model yachting Australia - including d'12metre radio yacht forums

Maverick · Guru

RE: Preserving Australia’s East Coast 12 History.

Maverick · Guru

DUMB DUMB & DUMBER

Meaning what Cow****y???

-- Edited by Maverick on Sunday 18th of September 2011 02:16:22 AM

Viking · Veteran Member

Hello Gents,

It is my understanding the EC12 Hull lines have never been produced for public access. The intent was to maintain a true one design hull with only a selected number of USA manufacturers authorised to produce the hulls in accordance with relevant policies of the USA EC12 association

The only plans I have seen are the building plans available for download from the EC12 building site. These do not include hull lines.

As documented, Australia has produced a number of ARYA authorised moulds from various sources however, what is not known is any formal discussions between Australia and the US in relation to the original mould production??

In addition, it would be beneficial to know (1) if any official correspondence existed between Australia (ESCA, AMYA or ARYA) and the US, (2) when and under what terms did the ARYA or the former AMYA take control of the EC12 class, and (3) are copies of official correspondence available to the class NCC and/or current owners??

I hope to clarify many of these issues on my return from Qld and had an opportunity to document much of Steves involvement with model yachting in Australia.

Hope this helps

Bob

waboats · Senior Member

Harry

The boat in question was sailed by a Garry Bromley.. my guess would be if it is the same boat it would have been remeasured & perhaps got a new sail number.

The Nationals Results are on the ARYA website. Sorry can't upload here.

http://www.radiosailing.org.au/results/11/RESULTS%20EC12%20Nationals.pdf

Cheers

John

Gesst · Veteran Member

John

All depends on which rules you read regarding the nine millimeters difference , if you read the US and the NZ rules they allow for six and four millimeters respectively. Maybe here in Aus we don't have good craft people that can build a hull to tolerance and that's why we have nine millimeters (joke).

I suspect the reason for having the IOM rules on the EC12 rules site is because there is no one at the helm.

Regarding the history, I was reading some more of Steve's history on the class and read this "Max Lewis had a beautiful light blue boat with diagonal stripes (red, white and blue) all in the gelcoat, his boat was numbered KA7 Columbia first registered in 22/12/81" and at the recent nationals there was a boat of that colour scheme and I wonder if it's the same boat, it now carries sail number 191 which I doubt it had when first registered in 1981.

Harry

waboats · Senior Member

Harry

In some aspect you may be right.

I think a lot are fearful of posting because of the consequences that may come later.

At least the message is being heard. Everybody is entitled to their opinion & I think History is what it is & where wrong can only be corrected by open discussion & disclosure. The more lost pieces in a puzzle the more accurate the final outcome wil be once they are found.

Still think that is some aspects there must be a Lines Plan somewhere that produced the Final Mould..

I know the Cottesloe Shed over here that produced the ODD fast boat always had many plans to refer to.. I've seen a few in my time. biggrin

I know that 3D Laser scanning is the norm in some engineering fields, so a scan of an original mould could produce accurate & flawless replicas from which to produce a single design.

Decided to read the EC12 Rules again & I still get confused why the IOM Rule Changes come up on the ARYA website instead of the ones proposed for EC12. disbelief

I suppose the 9mm Tolerances allows for the Flopping Differences between the different hulls. Well that is my take on why a One Design Class has tolerances which are so liberal.

Cheers

John

Could be wrong though... ashamed

-- Edited by waboats on Wednesday 7th of September 2011 05:38:57 PM

Gesst · Veteran Member

Ah well at least we now know there are watchers out there. Unfortunately I guess most of them choose to sit on the fence and only complain after the event that they weren't consulted or informed.

Harry

waboats · Senior Member

Don

Any chance of enlightening us on your take on History then... blankstare

Harry

with the right tooling & different materials many looks are possible...

Cheers

John

-- Edited by waboats on Wednesday 7th of September 2011 01:54:26 PM

Cowcocky · Member

DUMB DUMB & DUMBER

Gesst · Veteran Member

hi John,

I applaud the work done by Steve, as you suggest the history of any class needs to be documented for without a history there can be no future. Also without a history all the old salts would have no yarns to regale us all with.

There has to be a set of plans for without them how can they build exact scale plugs? I believe there is a table of offsets and drawings at one of Mystic Seaport's Museum libraries but as yet I haven't managed to find them but I will keep looking. As a last resort I suppose you could always try the designer of the original, Charley@charleymorgan.com and ask him if he is willing to share. :D :D

I too have thought of building a one off "rogue" EC12 totally built out of carbon fibre, several reasons for this. One is to see how light a total structure could be assembled, another reason to do it is because the rules don't allow it. Can you imagine the visual impact of having the whole thing built out of carbon twill? Woo Hoo!!!

Harry

waboats · Senior Member

Harryu

I suppose this is the exact reason why the History of any class needs to be documented & retained for future reference.

I know Steve has spent many a waking hour trying to piece together all that can be retrieved, either by memory or what was avaiable from registrars etc.

Eventually the weight of numbers will always determine what becomes fashionable & what is accepted.

I was wondering if there is a set of Line Plans available for the EC12 that would or could allow for a CNC Cut mould to be manufactured. Could a Local Builder do their own mould & cast a One-Off Boat?

Strict One-Design would probaly not allow this as my understanding is the Class is based arounds a sinbgle Tank Testing Model. But a Lines Plan would be great to keep in the event that the moulds deteriorate & can't be used.

Cheers

John

Gesst · Veteran Member

hi John,

The way I read it the Mini Mariner mould was flopped from a Dumas hull but probably not authorised because under the American rules at the time it was the Treasure Tooling mould that was to be the official class mould. Under those rules at the time I understand that It was legal and legitimate to flop a mould from an "approved" hull.

Originally it was mooted that the Mini Mariner hulls be banned in Australia due to having been flopped from a Dumas hull rather than a Treasure Tooling hull, but the sheer number of Mini Mariners that existed at the time meant they really had to be included and counted as being an EC12 and were thus accepted into the class. I don't know how many Mini Mariner boats were produced but I suspect it was rather more than less as I own Hulls #4 and #122. Hull #4 is in still remarkable condition and probably was raced against Alf Willoughby, the builder of Mini Mariners, at Chipping Norton. My boat has a name "Adios" and "CNMYC" painted on its blunt end. CNMYC being Chipping Norton Model Yacht Club.

Many years later of course the same thing happened again with another mould being flopped from a hull, this time in Tuross Heads on the South Coast by Rob Rixon. Once again there was a hostile reception to this "outlaw" mould and yet again the powers to be were more or less forced to bow and accept this mould as being legitimate as well due to the numbers of hulls produced from that mould. I don't know from what hull the Tuross Heads mould was flopped from, as I understand it that mould is now in Canberra owned by one of the two gents that attended the recent Nationals in Sydney.

Harry

-- Edited by Gesst on Monday 5th of September 2011 04:52:31 PM

-- Edited by Gesst on Monday 5th of September 2011 04:53:05 PM

waboats · Senior Member

Harry & Bob

You don't know if these FLOPS off the Hull (Dumas) were authorised by the class or was it just a convenient way of having access to another Hull Manufacturer.

As is always the case when you flop off a structure that has any amount of flex in it the resulting flopped mould will have differences. These need to be corrected.

Was an "original" (The Dumas one) finished hull measured off by inserting into the flopped mould to confirm a tight fit ?

My guess is from Henry's comments that the Keel & Hull were slightly fatter Which would be expected from a flop.. Flop of a Flop could only make for greater differences..

With construction tolerances in the Rules base then this shouldn't matter. A little bit here & a little bit there & wide variations can occur over time.

Reading the History it would seem Floppiong was common practice back then.

Cheers

John

-- Edited by waboats on Monday 5th of September 2011 12:57:36 PM

-- Edited by waboats on Monday 5th of September 2011 03:22:49 PM

Gesst · Veteran Member

Interesting that you say it all started from the Dumas hull, as I understand it the preferred hull in the beginning according to the then rules was from the Treasure Tooling mould.

Up several posts from this one you seemed to suggest that KA1 was a Dumas hull and Henry then corrected you by saying it was in fact a Mini Mariner hull, all I was saying that in essence is that even a Mini Mariner is actually a Dumas hull.

Aero Mini Marine was yet another manufacturer and their mould was of the Treasure Tooling design.

Yes Bob, I have photos .... what do I do with them?

Henry · Senior Member

Aero Mini Marine was flat , Dumas thin. Dumas hull and had to open up order to have make .

Dumas its thin the keel.

Henry

Viking · Veteran Member

Hello Harry,

Yes it all started from the Dumas, this must have been the preferred design considering there were over a dozen other designs during that era to choose from. It would be interesting to learn why the Dumas design was selected; perhaps we can appeal to any with information to come forward and let us know.

Hull number verses registration number? I must point out I am no expert on these matters. I have been trying to keep the history segment going until our good friend Henry is well enough to return and share his endless knowledge.

It is my understanding the registration number does not always coincide with the Hull production number. I have Mini Mariner hull number 50 but the boat is registered as KA 68. KA 1 may have corresponding hull and Rego numbers but until the boat is found, its anyones guess.

Similarly, the American Dumas would have the US hull production number and a different Australian Registration number. The same will occur when your NZ produced hull is registered. (Where are the photos, Harry?)

Thanks for your interest,

Bob

PS. Folks, if you have any information on this or other topics, please join in and preserve Australias Model Yachting History.

Gesst · Veteran Member

Hi Bob.

In reference to KA1 to being either a Dumas or a Mini Mariner hull are you referring to the builders sticker in the hull or the provenance of the Hull? In either case they are both essentially Dumas hulls, apart from building techniques. The Mini Mariner Hull mould is flopped from a Dumas hull.

Harry

Viking · Veteran Member

USA - Dumas (EC12 design) Significant influence in Australia

Thanks to Henrys notification that KA 1 was a Mini Mariner design and not a Dumas, Leigh has searched available records and correspondence in an attempt to clarify the anomaly.

Fortunately, Leigh has found old copies of faxes among correspondence once belonging to the late Gordon Ferguson. The copies identify KA 2 as the Dumas design which was or maybe still owned by Mr. R. Carr (SARYS) registered 15 November 1981 and named Carry On.

In addition, Leigh also found documentation for another Dumas registered to Mr. R. Pinkarton (KLMYC) on the 6^th April 1982 named Ragamuffin.

I also believe there is an American design (?) on the Central Coast. Apparently the gent purchased the boat only to find it did not comply with current Australian rating regulations and subsequently has never been registered. What a shame; in the interests of fair play you would have thought a solution could have been found.

Perhaps someone out there may be able to assist and share any information about the history of the boat?

In closing, I would like seek assistance from friends of the late Mr. Gordon Ferguson to join in and share their experiences of Gordon. Gordon was a champion of the EC12 class in every aspect and stalwart of RC sailing in general. I only met him once in competition at the David Burns match racing event for the larger International A class.

More to follow.

Thanks for your interest,

Bob.

PS. I you have any information you would like to share, please join in or contact Leigh or myself.

Viking · Veteran Member

Thanks for that Henry.

It seems you are the only person with an accurate copy of the register.

I look forward to sorting these issue with you on my return from Brisbane.

Take good care of yourself,

Bob.

Henry · Senior Member

Viking, Your wrong about KA1 . She was MINI MARINER . "ECOZEND" 15/11/81

EV Doorey.

Henry

Viking · Veteran Member

Hello Again,

I have just received the attached photos from Leigh depicting KA57 when purchased. Note the wooden mast and booms along with the older fittings.

Thanks again Leigh and I hope youll continue taking photos as the restoration progresses.

More to follow.

Bob.

Viking · Veteran Member

In pursuit of History.

Not to be outdone by his find of the century in locating the Mini Americas Cup winner, Leigh has found another piece of our EC12 history.

In brief - The roots of Australias involvement in establishing the class can be traced back to two boats purchased from the USA. Surprisingly (to me at least) both were Dumas designs (must have been the preferred design back in the day). A mould was taken from one of these and subsequently became the basis for future Australian designs.

The two Dumas designs were registered as KA1 and KA57 with the latter being first registered by Mr. R. Collins on the 6^th of February 1985, home port was listed as SARYS with the boat name of Recon 1.

Leigh now owns KA57 after locating the boat on E-Bay. The boat was in original condition complete with A & B rigs and wooden mast.

Leigh is currently restoring his find and I hope we can persuade leigh to provide a progress report along with photos of the progress.

Thanks for your interest,

Bob

Viking · Veteran Member

From advertisement to an historical find!

How many times have you been asked by onlookers where do I get one of these boats? This segment of our EC12 history started in the same manner back in 2005 with Sydney based EC12 stalwart Leigh Buttress-Grove taking the initiative to source availability of second hand boats by placing a Wanted add in the ARYA newsletter (Radio Waves). Results were favourable with four responses received and duly passed on to prospective owners.

Little did Leigh realise his actions would lead to that one off find after receiving a phone call from Hub Bell in Western Australia advising he had an American designed Dumas for sale. As discussions unfolded it soon became evident this was the boat that won the only Australian International One Design Match Race Series known as the Mini Americas Cup challenge in 1987 and skippered by Michael Bell.

For those seeking more information on this historic event I recommend reading an article written by ARYA Historian Mr. Stephen Crewes: http://www.radiosailing.org.au/our%20past/mini%20ac/imagepages/main.htm

Following the purchase arrangements, Hub Bell packaged the boat (wrapped in cardboard, sails placed inside the hull and strapped to a plank) for transport via Greyhound coach service to Sydney.

On arrival Leigh found the hull to be in very good condition and required only a minor cleanup and polish before he set about constructing new rigs and purchasing a new set of sails. This was followed with installation of new electrics, the addition of a small amount of lead to meet minimum weight requirements and followed by the boat registration process. The boat now sports #231.

The Dumas design was fitted with the long and low style of lead placement. In comparison to existing lead configurations found in the majority of Australian manufactured boats, the Dumas style lowers the centre of gravity adding in downwind stability while minimising the dreaded death roll trait.

Leigh has confirmed the benefits of this lead style advising he has never suffered from the death roll trait and hastens to add the boat supports the smaller rudder, this is certainly testament to an ideal balance of the boat.

A large number of todays owners have opted for the larger barn door type rudder and are now replacing their lead with similar shapes to those used by our NZ and American counterparts.

Thanks to Leighs efforts and his commitment to the class history, this famous R/C yacht has been preserved for future generations. Leigh and his boat are regular competitors in EC12 events conducted on the Eastern seaboard. If you are in the Sydney area take time to contact Leigh via his club (East Coast Sailing Association) and have a look at this historic Model Yacht.

This post would not have been possible without Leighs assistance and support and for that I am grateful.

Thanks for your interest,

Bob