And yes, John, your comments are informative, and are more of a specialised nature. Perhaps you might create a new forum in the General classification, and make some posts there.
Perhaps if more people understood the mechanics of addressing these issues, and maybe, issues concerned with running of meetings as well. I can't help but think, that sometimes, people don't speak up at meetings, because they may not be conversant with procedures, and therefore their rights, with the result that some issues may never be raised or discussed.
And if people are not conversant with procedures and protocols, there exists the potential for them to sometimes be bullied, by those who are more familiar with these issues.
Nobody can ever have too much knowledge!
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Maverick Model Yachting - The Only Way To Go! Secret Alias - Don Leitis
Many Years of dealing with the Formulation & Interpretation of Legislative Documents has provided me with a Cautious & Keen Eye when it comes to understanding Constitutions & other such instruments.
Not a skill I would encourage too many to seek out.. They simply can do your head in with the complexity & Nuances of written words. As opposed to what peopel thought they were doing in good faith.
In furthering any amendments of a Constitution it would be prudent to have a vote by members to accept such a change (Special Resolution 75% approval) & perhaps make the changes conditional. In my opinion the changes should be made anyways as this would open up the Association to greater opportunities.
Then the Constitution could be resubmit to ARYA for perusal, knowing the changes are conditional upon acceptance of any Proposal before ARYA.
Then if both parties agree the changes are made & in good faith both parties come to a common position.
Notice at no Stage have I suggested ARYA have any say in the Changes the Members desire..
With Good Governance comes with it a responsibility to ensure the Integrity & Outcomes of any Association are made for the benefit of ALL Members, equally & Unbiased.
Mostly in Hobby situations there is a Constitution as opposed to the Activity.. Most accept the Activity but fail to also appreciate the reqirements to uphold the Legal Obligations.
Most always fall foul of the Latter & unfortunately this is where you find many clubs & groups fall foul because of disagreements with written words as opposed to Intentions. Splits & Destruction can follow fairly soon.
Get Both right & the Foundation remains strong... Find any Chinks & Fix them as soon as possible..
This is not a simple problem for EC12's but I believe a fundamental Flaw in the ARYA system.
The ARYA Web Constitution is simply out of date & fails to meet the needs of a modern changing society. If nothing more this is the single most important task the new ARYA Executive should set itself. many years lost for one reason or another
From there the formation of New Associations should be easily followed & in time setting in place a more Owner Friendly system.
Cheers
John
PS Think a lot of These types of discussions (Rules & Regs) might be better served in a General Area as clearly these are not isolated incidents just for EC12 Class.
My own comments were more of a wish list, and I appreciate that we must first build the house before we can start to furnish it!
These comments were made, just so that while the house is being built, it can be built with an idea of what the final product may look like, and provision made, as appropriate, for desired final outcomes! I know this sounds corny, , but it would be foolhardy to build a house, without some idea of what we would expect the finished product, complete with furnishings, to look like!
But it sounds to me, like it is all under control, at this stage!
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Maverick Model Yachting - The Only Way To Go! Secret Alias - Don Leitis
John, I agree that Constitution and By-Laws set the conditions upon which organizations operate.
But ...I would totally oppose any idea, that they are set in stone, and can never be altered, for any reason.
And whilst changes to both, or, to either, Constitution and By-Laws, should never be taken lightly, organisations must, if they are to survive, be reasonably receptive to accommodating changes, sometimes, to deeply held beliefs.
Radio yachting exists within a dynamic environment, and its operations must stay in tune with the times, thereby requiring it also to be dynamic, and prepared to accept change.
One final thing about classes of membership.
I agree that only owner's of EC12's should be eligible to actually vote on issues!
But... that they may be receptive to suggestions from interested parties, as appropriate. These interested parties, I might suggest, should also be members, however classified, of the AEC12OA. I've never believed in accepting information, only from specific sources.
Here's to the ability to change as required, and for the sport to be the dynamic thing that will attract new people! Cheers!
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Maverick Model Yachting - The Only Way To Go! Secret Alias - Don Leitis
Don and John, I thought that it would be appropriate to respond a little on the subject you have spoken about regarding membership and the various ways and capacities that people can become involved with an organization such as ours.
John is correct when he alluded to the possibility that there may have been a certain naivity involved when we originally put the organization together and it is totally wise advice that John makes available to us regarding the usefullness of bi-laws etc.
The only reason why I believe that these desirable outcomes may be delayed is because as we speak we are still embroiled in the formative period of the life of this OA. A lot of water has yet to flow under the bridge before I will feel confident about the way forward for our class. If and when we have the heady title of Australian authority for the EC12 class bestowed upon us, then only then will I think we will have arrived and be in a position of authority to start addressing these types of issues.
It is like John says and a house keeping exercise where we shall have the luxury of making these kinds of decisions, discussed appropriately by the owners. There is no doubt that we have a large following who do not necessarily have anything to do with EC12 but nevertheless are extremely interested in seeing what the final wash up of this long fight of the OA to be cut loose from the rather stifling constraints of ARYA. I still believe however in the important role a National Authority needs to assert while at the same time affording the necessary flexibility for organizations such as our OA, to flourish.
As an aside I announce that I have divested myself of IOM sailing with the sale of my boat to Tasmania. This has freed me up to devote all my efforts to my belief that "one design" model yachts are the way of the future and the EC12 and Micro Magic do indeed fit that bill.
Straw
-- Edited by Straw on Friday 20th of January 2012 01:31:31 AM
Okay, I can see that with different classes of membership, all conditions can be catered for, so I don't understand why, folks, who do not currently own an EC12, cannot still be a member of the AEC12OA, under one of the classes of membership.
Perhaps some class definitions need to be reviewed to cater for these folks.
Mav
On integity grounds alone I have asked that my Membership of AEC12OA be reversed. I offered my fee to be converted to a Donation.
Merely because as things stand I cannot be a member without being an owner of an EC12. There are no additional classes of membership available at present.
The Future may hold things differently but for now the Constitution is fairly specific & being it is a legal registered document it cannot & should not be overlooked..
Perhaps in haste some things were not properly understood as to the outcomes but I believe in some ways this might have been an oversight & will in time be rectified.
Then I might wish to re-join if such memberships are allowed under the constitution.
I have received a communication from David & I think it would be best that your enquiry was answered from that source.
In General re Constitutions;
With Memberships as you say, different classes can exist, but these must have a basis within the constitution & By-Laws.
By way of an example there could be an additional membership (Affiliate Membership) that might provide for a lesser joining fee & accompanied by a restriction on voting rights. But all the other rights remain in place.. Receipt of information, newsletters, proposals, etc.
Which is a good alternative when direct involvement would require ownership & then an investment that should be protected against erosion by others that may not possess such an investment, eg non-owners.
Obviously Owners would feel that they have a great involvement therefore should have a greater say on any outcomes, I would agree.
That is why on Principle I have difficulty accepting the ARYA as the overall power in all things Radio Sailing.
This Sport & Hobby is made up of Owners (regardless of Class) & the protections & voting on outcomes by each class should rest with the owners in that Class of Yacht.
EC12 again..
Fundamentally I would agree with the Basic Principles of the AEC12OA ideas (I was never opposed on principle) , it just needs a few tweaks to accept a little more flexibility.
Hope this helps
John
-- Edited by waboats on Thursday 19th of January 2012 09:09:15 PM
Okay, I can see that with different classes of membership, all conditions can be catered for, so I don't understand why, folks, who do not currently own an EC12, cannot still be a member of the AEC12OA, under one of the classes of membership.
Perhaps some class definitions need to be reviewed to cater for these folks.
After all, not that this is any guide, but I expect to get rid of my EC12 shortly. But I will still wish to remain a member of the AEC12OA, once, if ever, my membership will be confirmed.
Perhaps, I may yet, before I die, achieve my dream of acquiring a brand new EC12 hull.
So I still want to be informed of all developments, events, and happenings occurring within the EC12 community, should the time come, when I can acquire a brand new EC12 hull!
I would be sorely disappointed if I was denied information about what was happening in the EC12 world, just because I was between boats! That would I believe severely disadvantage me, once I acquired my new boat. And that, I would not be happy about.
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Maverick Model Yachting - The Only Way To Go! Secret Alias - Don Leitis
When discussing mould, I would suggest that this should be done under By-Laws, making it far easier to administer
An example & by no means the only way this could be addressed;
Class Equipment
In furthering the Objectives of the AEC12OA & the EC12 Class within Australia the Association will
a)Oversee all official moulds sanctioned by ARYA, AEC12OA along with any other equipment deemed appropriate to support EC12 class radio sailing in Australia.
b)Provide for Instruction & Guidance to all Manufacturers/Builders of EC12's
c)Continue to update & keep informed all manufacturers/Builders of EC12's within Australia of any and all amendments to the EC12 Class Rules (National & International).
d) Maintain a register of all Known EC12 Hulls Manufactured within Australiaand
e) Allow for the registration within Australia of certified EC12 hulls constructed Internationally
To avoid any suggestion of scare mongering and concerns not based on facts , I would like to provide the wording on the Constitution (Model Rules) of the AEC12OA.
3 Objects
The objects of the association are
a) The Association shall hold and own the official moulds and any other equipment deemed appropriate to support EC12 class radio sailing in Australia.
b) The Association will liase with Radio Sailing Clubs and Associations in Australia and Internationally to gain international status for EC12 Class.
5 Classes of members
a) The membership of the association consists of ordinary members who are EC12 owners.
b) The number of ordinary members is unlimited.
At present the concerns about Moulds & Older Boats is a huge issue & the Constitution seems to limit how these will be addressed. If the Association must own all Moulds (Authorised) then the old moulds become unauthorised immediately as they are not owned by the AEC12OA. .
A better wording could be;
3 Objects
The objectives of the association are
a)The Association shall promote and further the interests of the EC12 Class of Radio Yacht throughout Australia
b)To encourage & coordinate National Competition in the class
c)The Association will liaise with Radio Sailing Clubs and Associations in Australia and Internationally to achieve International status for EC12 Class.
d)To represent Australian Owners on the International Class Committee, to produce, manage and maintain any International Class Rule that may be adopted.
e)In furthering these objectives the Association will seek out and maintain communications with likeminded EC12 Class Associations so as to provide for the future formulation of an International Class Association designed to promote competition between Nations.
5 Classes of members
a)The membership of the association consists of ordinary members.
b)The number of ordinary members is unlimited.
c)Members must support the objectives of the Association.
But not for me to determine.... It certainly isn't advisable to enshrine things in a Constitution that can make things unworkable.. That is where by-laws come in & are used for day to day running of Associations.
Constitutions should provide for a broad understanding of the Association & Its' workings. By-Laws are there to enable a day to day management.
Currently the AEC12OA onlyy have a registered constitution (Aug 2010).
As it Stands NON-Owners are not permitted to join the AEC12OA & unless the Mould is owned by the AEC12OA then any new boat cannot be recognised..
That is how it is currently wrtitten.. Regardless of good intentions. Overcome by simply changing the constitution..
-- Edited by waboats on Monday 16th of January 2012 06:52:54 PM
I like your idea of anyone can be a member and not necassairly have a boat. This can only benefit the group as whole with added finances which allows more affordability of promotion and development etc rather than a few stalwarts digging deep.
I could not possibly, in my wildest musings, condone any approach, that did not approve, in perpetuity, any, and all existing EC12's, whether ever registered or not, as at the time of the adoption of any new rules or regulations, that met the conditions of acceptance as at the time of their manufacture. Any action denying these boats, would, in my opinion, be an exercise in extreme short sightedness, and to put it bluntly, stupidity!
And, I would prefer, that insurance cover be available to all members of the AEC12OA, whether they were members of an ARYA affiliated club, or not. I might suggest that this insurance need not be expensive, due to my perception of very low claim rates. But that is another issue, as the ARYA, has to the best of my knowledge, never disclosed in its annual accounts, or anywhere else, the history of any claims made under its Public Liability policies, nor even the basis, or conditions, under which the policies have been initiated and funded, nor even the underwriter! And even whether the coverage has ever been tendered for, or even competing quotes ever obtained. These are some things any new Executive should review, as a matter of priority.
But, I might suggest that the AEC12OA accept membership from anyone who wanted to be a member, whether they owned an EC12 or not! Anyone requesting membership, would surely have the best interests of the class at heart! And how would the AEC12OA handle the situation where
The meeting of these conditions, might, I believe, actually promote the sport, rather than destroying it, as is the road everybody is currently travelling along!
And I have a huge objection to paying fees, or dues, to any club in which I have no interest, just so that I might be eligible to become a member of the AEC12OA. I might suggest, that if these conditions were imposed on me, that something really is sick in the land of Nod! That the ARYA would require one to acquire membership of a club that does not even support the EC12, so that one might become a member of the AEC12OA beggars, defies, logic!
With regard to the ARYA and its relationship with the EC12, the ARYA have always, or at least over the last 9 years or so, that I have been involved with EC12's and the ARYA, treated, for reasons, known only to the ARYA, the EC12 as the very poor, embarrassing, relative, the relative, that no-one else in the family wants to have anything to do with.
Please note, that no personal attacks have been made here, and only issues, and opinions, have been addressed!
An PostScript to the above post!
I believe that anyone who wants to be a member of the AEC12OA should be entitled to be a member, whether they own a boat or not.
What happens when an existing member of the AEC12OA sells his/her EC12, for whatever reason? But has every intention, of later, acquiring another one. But in the meantime they still want to be kept abreast of developments! I believe the present constitution, disadvantages people like this, to the ultimate detriment of this class, and this sport!
And just at a time, when it should be doing everything it can, to encourage new people, whether they have an EC12 or not!
I believe this part of the constitution, is anti-promotion!
And, what if it discourages people like me, who fell in love with the shape of the EC12, and wanted to know what was currently happening, in the Australian EC12 world, as a prelude to them acquiring their own boat?
What do these people do, or what avenues are available to them, to pursue a potential interest, if they are not permitted to know anything of what is happening in the EC12 world?
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Maverick Model Yachting - The Only Way To Go! Secret Alias - Don Leitis
