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Post Info TOPIC: An Interesting Happening


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Valuable hints there Henry.

Damn, I wish there were more people out there that could provide this sort of information. I have no problems at all admitting that I for one, can learn from these types of comments/hints.

There is so much to learn for the new radio sailor, like me, if they have never had any experience of sailing in the past.

And these types of hints can be handy when applied to a particular boat, or in a general sense, where possibly a new topic could be started in say the General Discussion area. Something maybe like, sailing hints, tuning hints, etc.

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There was an interesting happening at the Pond on Saturday. There was 8 boats and a EC12. We all raced like there was no tomorrow. The wind was gusting to about 6 to 10 knots and what was sad was to see the EC12 racing in his 3 rd suit of sails. Its not that he didn't have the 2nd and 1st suits because he did, but chose not to put those up. And the inevitable happened. Up and down wind he was out sailed.

Now even I know that you can tune EC12 to go in all winds and the trick with them IS KNOW HOW TO ADJUST THEM , in all conditions. Nobody seems to know about shortening the backstay to flatten off the Mainsail anymore? Or perhaps flattening the Jib to push the head of the boat off the wind or even not sailing too high in the windier conditions. There are all manner of things to do , than putting a smaller rig on, that looks hideous in the extreme. So what are some of the things you know about keeping EC12s going in higher winds with bigger rigs on?

-- Edited by Henry at 08:44, 2007-12-30

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Thank you Henry for pulling me back into line.

You are absolutely correct, and I stand suitably chastised, admonished and I am sure the boot print on my rear end will fade in time, and may possibly not even leave any permanent scars.ashamed.gif

I do get a clear message from your comment, and I can only support it 100%.

Well done!giggle.gif


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Scuse me Maverick. We have places for dicussing the weather, the state of the local river etc, etc, and this is not on the Nautic 12 page. Go take your" red whatsit" and put it in that unnatural place , this minute.

 There are rules governing these type of things(illegal infringments) and your breaking them . These rules are not just for some and not for others as you will shortly find out , much to your peril.

 If you want to talk about the weather or local enviroments you should take it to the appropriate page.

 So whats this about 1st Jan?? Are you going to give birth to something? Make you head of the CIA.... asio.... m21?


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WAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!

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Henry,

Yep, there have been floods down my way. Fortunately, I and the immediate community are all OK. The biggest threat I and my neighbours face is when there is a "King" tide affecting the sea and therefore the river, combined with heavy rains upstream swelling the Tarwin River. It has been know before that we folks, have sometimes actually been isolated fromm the rest of the civilised world, with the river on one side, and the ocean on the other. Opinion apparently seems to be divided as to whether this is good or bad.

As far as anything else goes, all I wish for is that radio yachting in 2008 wil go from strength to strength. And I deeply hope that the Nautic12's and the A2's and the EC12's will all be able to work together to promote these beautiful boats. All of them. And I hope that my editorial comment on 1st January will be one of a positive note.

However, I hopefully will not be held entirely responsible for all of my comments posted on 1 January, given that I will need to be required to perform social duties that have sometimes in the past proven to be quite challenging, and therefore wearying, but which I have still nevertheless attempted to perform, albeit sometimes with limited positive results in the face of adversity. Yet they still come back. Who can figure.

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And .... Maverick ... this forum is about posting .... I thought? I was talking to you and .... You were talking to me ... most of the time. And if you think I'm going to bable on to myself , well all I can say is........................ give me alf a chance.  I did have this thing to say and that was a Happy Xmas to all our readers  and surprisingly they are many.  They know who they are! Anyway have a Safe Hols and come back and tell us how Don's page is going (secretly ) in the new year. I don't know if you people know but where Maverick lives there is heaps of flood waters in the Paddocks and one could say that it good.

 But all things in Australia is like this bitter/ sweet thing. You can never enjoy a good drought, when it rains?


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WEell Maverick you seem to be contrite. However, you do have this thing to injure people with the tone of your questions.

Your interpretations about TYY and your hull numbers are a case inpoint. And something about intergrity of customs etc. I took great pains with you explaining , a few post ago the situation about Hull Serial Numbers but it seemed to miss you somehow. And yes, most of the problem is your own making.

You said that you didn't care if the Association's fee was $100.00 , so why are you asking the question? Nobody has ever asked that question in all the 40 years I have been around Model Yachting and you have asked that question three times that I know of, sofar. Two of those times when you have expressed a desire to join us.

The other questions are in the same mode . You're coming from the wrong direction of the equation. You should be asking what you could be doing to help, rather that what you're going to recieve? So your few questions  don't help the cause just hinder it a bit more.

This is the sort of sport that you must do , if you live away from the main body of members , you must create your own membership/ club close to where you sail. This means ... baasically that you get in and do it in your own backyard ( Or paddock , in your case). I admit , this is a big ask of you but that is what it is about at this stage. You can't "talk" anything up unless there is something happening there to talk up.

The thing being Maverick is that you can get other people sailing , you can get a club going, so the "un-nessecary" becomes the nessecary.

I might add that this just doesn't apply solely to you . This applies to one and every member of Nautic 12 Association for this to happen . There are no "FREE RUNS".

Clearly we have a lot of different talents between all of us, but working together and using our individual talents we can get there. Thing go better if there is more than one club trying to further the organization. Time is lost bikkering about things not connected with furthering the class likethe questions you asked, for example. Basically , I don't think people are sitting here with baited breath waiting for an answer on what costs we are occuring . They are more concerned with what the association is doing about getting boats/ clubs racing?



-- Edited by Henry at 15:21, 2007-12-24

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Damn Henry

While I was composing my reply to your last question, you made two additional posts in the meantime.

Man, you are fast.

Parts of those two posts I understand, but other parts I don't. I will reread at some future time and when I understand them I will respond.

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Henry,

No need to get your knickers in a knot. I just asked a question some time ago, as I recall.

I have no problem with anything you said, except that if I had paid my subs to the N12 Association and you decided to change on the morning of a specified day, to change a regatta from an N12 one to a Marblehead one, I might just possibly get pissed off, especially if I was coming a long way specially for this purpose.

And I take umbrage at your following comment as the only one I have ever, ever asked this question of, was the Nautic12 Association. And if it has been asked more than once that is simply because it has not previously  been answered.

"But I notice Maverick that when you start to get ready to join something you start asking about the money angle."

Might I just add that I have no problem with payment of dues, be they $10, be they $100, or whatever other figure, provided the sport as a whole benefits. Not a single solitary problem in the world.

But anyway, the question was for the benefit of anybody who may be interested, and especially is not relevant to me, as the Nautic12 Associations do not recognise my boats anyway.

Hmmmm, I just wonder, how, when I received my boats, they had Triple Y Yachts Manufacturing labels in them including serial numbers, when they don't exist. And they were there when they came through Customs in Australia. So I wonder how they got there. Yet the sender's were in fact Triple Y Yachts according to all the Customs documentation. I am so confused.

I hate this negativity, and I would not be a party to it, was not my integrity and honesty being challenged.

In fact, I have already demonstrated my lack of politicical astuteness by making these retaliatory comments, and I will not do so any more. If anybody wants to ask me any questions please send me a personal email to maverick@dldirect.net where I will answer your questions on a one to one basis. Enough damage has already been done to this sport. I do not intend publicly to add insult to injury.

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Now if you want to create trouble for yourself (and who wants that?) you let in some people who are not like minded in your organizations goals. We'll call a loose cannon. Now to introduce someone like tha, it defeats the purpose of the organization.. This organization is about RACING NAUTIC 12 RACING YACHTS.... only.

 Now for  example you came in and said you wanted to run a few regatta and you had some ideas on increasing the membership and you were going to put those ideas  into practice on your home water as you promote NAUTIC 12s. Well that is a bit different than asking  about the Association's finances etc. Now do you get the drift??


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when you get into a class association you presume that other members will pick up the slack in the organization, from time to time. They seldom do but we live in hope that it will happen at some juncture.

 In a class association one has this thing in mind that everyone is working to a certain goal for the Association. In the Nautics at the present time it is achieving numbers in the class. This goal is important at this time more than anyother goal and hence the importants is or should be towards achieving this purpose almost singularly, for it is in numbers that we are going to achieve the most benefit quickly for the association.

 So where someone is, who buys a boat, the ultimate goal should be about getting other people who are interested in getting a like boat who live near them. Its a pretty simple thing to say. And very hard to achieve. So what we do is join a club and try to introduce a new member into the club. Because we are spread over Australia, we form a big club called the Australian Nautic12 Association and try to introduce other "like minded" people to it.


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Thank you for that instruction. However, I didn't want to talk about either of those two classes . I thought I was just answering a question? I would be quite happy to answer the question on the other boat , the AP one design at a later time in that other place you mentioned.
 Henry.

 So , the trouble with "organized " sailing is that preparations must be made for people who travel  to events. If nobody does the "un-nessecary". How do you think these travellers will get on when they arrive? Maybe we might have changed our minds on the morning of the regatta a decided on sailing Ms instead of the 12s that we originally planned to sail And we perhaps thought it was un -nessecary to inform other of it. Now I only use this as an example . I know you have a preference for little or no organization, I accept that . But I notice Maverick that when you start to get ready to join something you start asking about the money angle.

Like If we asked you to pay a really great some of $40.00 then I would possibly say it could be valid but a measily $10.00, well we would have trouble paying for all the stuff one gets plus the postage to them and who pays for the phone calls etc and all the running around getting prizes and all the other 101 jobs there are to do, if not every one has a email. So at the end of the year we finish up with nothing left over. So who pays for the Start Tape and the Rounding Marks and all that stuff and what about the replacement of tape batteries etc. Who pays for that?
 You know,to run a class its just not lifting the phone and say "we are sailing on Saturday, lets go".


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Thank you for asking. Yes, and I am still interested in your comments re the Scottish 12-metre and Albert Park One Design, but they have nothing to do with N12's.

Might I respectfully suggest that there might be two other forums in which these types of posts can be appropriately made. Lots of leeway there.

They are "Boats similar to the 12 metre/IACC's" or "Other Classic Model Boats". Certainly the second option caters for almost any older boat.

If one goes to these forum's the option to create a new topic button is in the upper right hand side of the screen. Just click on that and away you go.

Hope this helps.


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You asked me about these classes? I was trying to accommodate you.

Should I take this to some other page. Where do you reckon?


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Henry wrote:
Well Thank you Maverick. The Scottish 12 metre first came here  in the 20s and 30s I think ? I thought it was mostly through english migrants coming here and bringing the boats with them. There are reports of them doing this , especially in Victoria. Although I have seen some examples in NSW. This is quite a nice little boat that was popular as the name implies in .... Scotland.


Comments noted, although also noted is that fact that no further reference to Albert Park One Design has been made.


 
Further, and as a general comment, would all poster's please note that the topics in this area should be restricted to Nautic12 comments. There is plenty of space for new topics related to other classes, other ideas, other comments in other areas of these forums', and if not already created, they can easily be done so in the General Discussion area of the main forum if need be. Any further postings in this particular forum not related to Nautic12's will simply be deleted.

I just don't have the time, or the inclination, to have to sort out the waffle from the value. 



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Henry wrote:

Thank you for your advert on the lead format. But I think your got it wrong. The regatta on Jan 26th is a National Championship and not a NSW one as you mention.( Please refer to "Interesting Happening" Nov 25th)


Correction has been noted, and message posted on website advising of correction.



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Well Thank you Maverick. The Scottish 12 metre first came here  in the 20s and 30s I think ? I thought it was mostly through english migrants coming here and bringing the boats with them. There are reports of them doing this , especially in Victoria. Although I have seen some examples in NSW. This is quite a nice little boat that was popular as the name implies in .... Scotland.


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Thank you for your advert on the lead format. But I think your got it wrong. The regatta on Jan 26th is a National Championship and not a NSW one as you mention.( Please refer to "Interesting Happening" Nov 25th)


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Well Henry,

I must confess that I have previously never heard of either boat.weirdface

I would be most appreciative of any information you can provide regarding these boats.

I am sure there would be other's interested as well. You know them. The silent majority. The listeners, and I do not state this in a disparaging way. It is just the way things are.

But I certainly believe that you, having raised the issue of these boats, and having some knowledge of them, might be prepared to share that knowledge for the benefit of all.

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How about a blank stare?

 The Scottish 12 was not a ONE OFF.  Neither was the Albert Park one design.


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Henry wrote:
 There have been other 12metre happenings in Australia Maverick and I draw to your attention the fact of the old Scottish 12 metre that inhabited this country for Yonks before the Ec12 came in in 1976 circa.And how about a mention of the Albert Park One Design, from your neck of the woods/paddocks, this doesn't even get a mention from you. I wonder why?

I must say that you provided some really interesting information but I was really referring to boats that were introduced in numbers, not really one off's, of which I am sure there would have been many variations. And I'm sorry, but I have no idea of the significance of your "I wonder why?" sentence above.confused


Henry wrote:
 And shame upon shame , I hear that Albert Park model yacht club is no more!!After 100 odd years, it fails to exist anymore, for they have lost their "IN" at Albert Park lake! By national parks & wild things. What have you said about that?


What is it that you would have had me say?confused



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There is another "interesting happening " that started today . For Ancient Mariners started sailing twice a week instead of Officially , one today. Yes, the boys thought we should try to do it on WEDNESDAYS and it turned out really good. We had a nice day after starting at 11.00am. Maximum roll -up, which is pleasing. So we will see what day proves better , I bet they will both be good days to race.

Henry.


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Well it could have been "an interesting happening"?

 There have been other 12metre happenings in Australia Maverick and I draw to your attention the fact of the old Scottish 12 metre that inhabited this country for Yonks before the Ec12 came in in 1976 circa.And how about a mention of the Albert Park One Design, from your neck of the woods/paddocks, this doesn't even get a mention from you. I wonder why?

 And shame upon shame , I hear that Albert Park model yacht club is no more!!After 100 odd years, it fails to exist anymore, for they have lost their "IN" at Albert Park lake! By national parks & wild things. What have you said about that?


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Well, personally I think the order is OK. Half the poster's on these forums', being you, are fully committed to the Nautic12, while the other half, being me, are committed to both the Nautic12 and the A2, so the order by way of interest seems to be OK.

However, I will speak to Admin about moving a couple of the horses to a more higher ground paddock, and moving one of the others to one of the lower paddock's.

But the EC12 will stay where it is as the first item. Why?

Because it was, as far as I can tell, the first serious 12-metre model, and seems to me, the other 12's have been a development of the EC12. Similar to the real thing maybe, possibly, roughly, remotely even.

The EC12 has earned that place. It may not always stay that way, but I can't see it changing in the immediate future.

And I still think this particular item might have been better discussed in the Web Site Suggestions, or even General Discussion forums'.biggrin

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So Maverick , I must ask you about something? Why is Nautic 12s down the list of things on this web page? Here it is the only class that is virtually using this web forum and we get put down forth. Has this got anything to do about the horse breathing down our necks?

 I figure if we're making the gallop on these pages , you might put us up the top near the bridle. To show the real value that this ..... um , leading class has in this d'12 metre web forum pages! These other classes .. while they have their places( I don't know where?) they are not exactly ... thriving , if you get my drift. And till they do, get into a canter, if you get my drift and not to put a to finer point on it in the paddock , to put them on a lower step , down where the hooves gallop, or lower in the pecking/ neighing order.


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Well, I'm not in a position to make any further comment as I don't know what these folks are actually doing or what they might be trying to achieve, but I figure if a craft is big enough, or nearly big enough, to have a human passenger, then it is no longer a model.

It is either a toy or a small full size boat. Either way, I don't think something like that qualifies to be included in a model radio yachting sport/hobby, any more than a gyrocopter or ultralight aircraft is included in the model aircraft sport/hobby.

But then that's only my opinion.

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Some years ago there was a 2.4 metre America's Cup boat that people could sail in. (This is only 16 " longer than this model we are talking about ) A couple of young lads used to sail one with the Drummoyne sailing club's twilight event on tuesday nights in Sydney harbour.I saw them cause I was in myEndeavour 26' sailing in the same race.

 So sailing a model about the same length was a bit overkill.


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Hmmmm. This "seller's" approach certainly seems interesting. And I must confess that I never knew that the bigger the boat, the more you knew. I'll be damned!

Personally, the A2/Nautic12's are for me, as big and as heavy as I want to go.

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On a general rule of thumb  that I carry around is the theory that the heavier the boat the less people sail them. I had a nice conversation with someone who was giving me this "sell" on this boat he was interested in . For he was saying how the people sailing this big boat knew far more than anyone else etc etc. The conversation dragged on on how supeior these boats were.... till I asked him how many were actually sailing. He said 2.

What a waste Maverick? This boat was 2 metres long and one would need some sort of truck to move it around, let alone store it.


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Certainly qualifies on the topic heading of An Interesting Happening, although not related to the original comment and maybe more appropriate in the General Discussion area. However, I have put the horse away on this one.smile

Obviously, the Taswegians have done their research and determined that there is room for yet another couple of classes of boats, and the demand is, or will be there.weirdfaceAnd if I'm reading your post right, these boats are going to be even heavier than the A's. Not sure how viable that's going to be long term if we don't get newbies into the sport.
Hmmmm will be interesting to see what happens.confused



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I'm putting something here because I don't know where to put it and I can't put it by itself ... cause' I don't want to hear your hooves coming up behind me.

I hear and see that there are some guys who are putting out a American 12 class yacht in Tassie. This I might add is not a Nautic or the other one about 6ft long Volvo 70 type as well as a Dragon class about 4 ft long. Industrious lot aren't they?

Henry


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Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm , I can't imagine who? There is only you and me?


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Sorry Henry,

I did the ass thing. You know, the one where assumption and reality quite often don't meet.

But in my defence, you did not say it was a registration number. Just a KA-19.

But there was no doubt about what the nature of my query was based on.

So are you going to upload any pictures of this new boat onto this forum, or onto the australian Nautic12 website. I'm sure there would be many people interested to see the latest boat.

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You're talking about serial numbers and I was talking about rego numbers.
 Its like talking about oranges and bananas. I don't know??? Please Explain?


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please explain?


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Well, that's great news.

But I must confess that I am a bit confused. I thought that Nautic12 serial numbers were up to 122 in August of this year.

Or don't serial numbers mean anything any more?

It's not a complaint. Just a question.

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Well I just heard KA 19 was just ordered. Numbers are creeping up.


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Henry wrote:
With the chance of raising your IRE again.

I want to announce that the Australian Nautic 12 Association's National Championship will be held on Australia day weekend 25th & 26th January 2008. (this is another friday /saturday deal).


I'm not sure why you think the above post would raise my ire, and at any rate, I would not have thought that that would have mattered anyway.smile

Like I stated in the where, when, etc., sailing forum, anything that helps promote radio yachting has got to be good for the sport.

And indeed, I wish you all the best for a successful regatta.




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With the chance of raising your IRE again.

I want to announce that the Australian Nautic 12 Association's National Championship will be held on Australia day weekend 25th & 26th January 2008. (this is another friday /saturday deal).

Venue is to be decided. More details will be announced soon. Stay tuned.

Henry

Nautic 12 web page   www.rcyachts.net/nautic12/  

we're active!

-- Edited by Henry at 10:43, 2007-11-25

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In deed what could be simpler????

Well ,, How about having just one page! Instead of all these pages and then you and I (the posters) can "ramble " on. How about we use the spagetti theory? Or what about the snakes and ladder one , thats interesting. Up the snakes and down the ladders. Conversations are just that, conversations. I have more that one subject in my conversations, they're fun, interesting. The most interesting ones are when there is two conversations going at once in the same post. But I warn you it is not for the faint hearted.

I can tell by your tenure that your a man who has everything in its place and an ordered mind and that having two differing subjects in a conversation may prove , well disconcerting? However it leads to satisfying one needs to communicate. Don't you think?

 And Mav , you can't live your life on "Unlikely Events" happening. There are times when your hoof prints do leave a mark but you should not gamble ( make decissions) on that occuring. Life is not a practice run, its the real thing , a one offer'.

-- Edited by Henry at 08:10, 2007-11-24

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Henry wrote:
Maverick , I don't know how to write in RED but I suggest you stop moving posts. There is just you an me here. Half of this group and the "silent majority" don't like you moving posts around , they might get wood rot , okay

Ok Henry, this is the way I see it. Half the posters on these forums', (you), don't like the posts being moved around, and the other half, (me), get pissed off when discussions occur that have nothing to do with the stated topic. And there is a valid reason for that. In the unlikely event that somebody wants to visit and follow a particular discussion, it really should only concern stuff the topic is about, otherwise, everything just gets thrown in a bucket and nobody knows where anything is at.

Now, I have a solution to the divisive issues experienced by the evenly divided groups of posters.idea

If the posters of one group, let's just say it's you, have something to say, but it's not covered by an existing topic, then just create one, and post away. Just stick to the topic being discussed.

That will also, and at the same time, solve the problems experienced by the other half of the posting group, (me), and everything will be hunky dory.


What could be simpler? confused



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Model Yachting - The Only Way To Go!
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Well , we have sailed our Nautic 12s down there the last time we sailed there. Here was a beautiful situation . The pond was just the right size for a full yachting course of Maximum proportions. Lots of depth, wind was a bit fluckey (just how we like it).

Hairoil (my mate) and I had a chuckle when we went to Balla, Here was a club in the second biggest city in Victoria. Balla had a very large silted- up lake in the city that had 4 or 5 skiff/dinghy clubs on it that couldn't sail because of the silting up.

This should have been the ideal situation for a R/C yacht club? Here was a captive yachting horde that couldn't sail and here was a R/C model yacht group sitiuated close to or in town, that could not find members. And it looks like they might have foldered.

 Maverick , I don't know how to write in RED but I suggest you stop moving posts. There is just you an me here. Half of this group and the "silent majority" don't like you moving posts around , they might get wood rot , okay

-- Edited by Henry at 08:25, 2007-11-23

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Well Henry,

Seems I spoke too soon. Have just posted a question in the General Discussion area regarding what's happened to the Eureka club.

But otherwise, I might also have to agree with your last post. Communication is absolutely essential for the survival of anything.

It almost seems, to me at least, that maybe there are more selfish people in radio yachting that in the radio aeroplane and car fraternities. Because of my interest in helicopters I recently went to a few websites to do with that interest. Some of these sites have in excess of 3,000 individual members, and they appear to be real members, and they are not afraid to communicate.

The question I would ask, if it isn't selfishness, by way of sailors just taking information, and not putting anything back, why is it that the radio yachting fraternity just in the main, do not communicate, whilst communication in other branches of the radio sports is extremely well and alive and kicking?

If not selfishness, what could it be?

Should there be any answer to this post, could it please be made in the General Discussion area, under whatever topic any responder might want. This is certainly not a matter affecting just Nautic12's.

-- Edited by Maverick at 20:10, 2007-11-22

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Well I could not agree with your more but that's life.This is why this hobby ? sport is so small, things are not going to improve in my lifetime because of these very facts, lack of communications.I've proved time and again that clubs run better on information. Most clubs try to run on no information.


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It will recover. I am absolutely sure about that, especially as the administrator seems to be impartial.

One of the reasons I stopped going there, and maybe other people felt the same way, was that posts were being deleted because they didn't agree with a particular person, or group of persons' point of view.

That was to me unacceptable. It amounted to censorship, and if that was the case, there was no point in making any comment. That is not the way forums' are meant to operate.

But Henry, you know as well as I, that there are many, many readers of postings on forums' but only a few, a very very few, have the courage to state their points of view openly.

And more's the pity because the sport would benefit from more opinions publicly stated, rather than the snide, whispered, backhanded, backstabbing, comments that typically occur, and incorrect decisions being made at public meetings, simply because people do not have the courage to state their beliefs.

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 It took the big dive as well. The deep six.


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Comment was made in the d'12 metre radio yacht website about ongoing problems with mysterious deletions of posts from the Eureka forums.

My understanding is that the cause of the problems has now been rectified, and I don't expect any future issues.

My thanks to the folks at Eureka who took the hard decisions to ensure the integrity of the forums' future operations.



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Recently, I posted a reply on the Eureka Forum's on the Nautic12 page a response to the following post.

"It appears there is a class of 12 metre that is appearing called the ORIGINAL NEW ZEALAND NAUTIC 12. It is a class of 12 metre thats racing around I hopefully I can get someone to explain what it is.

FUN"

I responded, on the forum, by saying that "I was indeed also interested in finding out what this new boat was about. I also asked what supporting evidence there was to support this assertion."

Nothing malevolent intended. Just a simple question.

Seems that it was too political as my question was mysteriously and actually removed from the forum and replaced with the following comment.

"For those who want to put negative comments up about someone elses sport. Try to keep your thoughts FREINDLY and to the GENERAL THEME of what the forum is for, please."

It was always my intention to do this. All I did was ask a simple question in response to a post. Seems like that is not allowed if more information to support the initial post is requested.

And lest anyone thinks I am paranoid, one just needs to look at the flow of questions on this forum to realise that what I say is reasonable.

And the people behind the Nautic12 want us to trust them! The mind boggles!



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