model yachting Australia - including d'12metre radio yacht forums

waboats · Senior Member

Future of the Australian EC12 Class

waboats · Senior Member

So the FINAL RESULT is ???

Mr Dobbie supplied a List of 45 names as the OFFICIAL RECORD of EC12 Registered Boats /Owners. A process of 2/3 Affirmative Support (of this List) was required to pass the authority for the class to AEC12OA.

AEC12OA acknowledged & accepted the process put in place by Mr Dobbie on behalf of ARYA.

The AEC12OA then proceeded to a Vote knowing the requirements set by Mr Dobbie (ARYA)

The Results are listed above..

To Pass Authority for EC12 to AEC12OA in Terms of the Agreement reached between AEC12OA & ARYA required a 2/3 Support (66.6% of 45 owners).

That by simple Maths would require 30 Affirmative Votes in order for Authority to Control the EC12 Class to pass to AEC12OA.

The Vote did not receive the Required 30 Affirmative Votes & fell short of the agreed terms. A total of only 27 votes were received.

There is no point crying over Spilt Milk if the process was not understood nor adressed correctly. The agreement was 66.6% affirmation of the total of 45 Owners.

It appears that now there is a desire to change the scope & the parameters of the Agreement.

On integrity grounds alone this should have been done prior to reaching an agreement & putting it to a vote.

A failing of those that now wish to manipulate the outcome to reflect a difference of opinion, & poor by any standard. The members/owners have spoken or more to the point NOT SUFFICIENT owners have seen fit to cast an Affirtmative Vote to pass authority to AEC12OA.

The List is What the List Is as agreed by Mr Morris President of AEC12OA.

So the Outcome is quite clear. .

30 Owners from the List DID NOT support the proposal only 20 did.

That makes it a Final Result of 44.4% affirmative votes which does not meet the minimum standard set by the Agreement between AEC12OA & ARYA, 66.6%

Mr Morris & AEC12OA knew the conditions & perhaps failed to make appropriate representations to ALL those on the list & encourage their vote, whether that supports or not.

Only with 100% return is the Full & more Accurate Position known..

So Unfortunately The Proposal Fails on this occasion..

We must now all agree to move forward & look towards an Alternative Proposal that is more palatable to ALL those concerned about the Future of Radio Sailing within Australia.

In my opinion, A more Inclusive Proposal that seeks to pass Authority to the Members & Owners would be more appropriate, not one that on inspection appears to merely substitute one master for another.

A proposal that seeks to Encourage involvement at all levels & not merely to appease some greater power or individual, is what is needed.

Cheers

John

-- Edited by waboats on Sunday 4th of December 2011 02:31:18 PM

-- Edited by waboats on Sunday 4th of December 2011 04:59:08 PM

waboats · Senior Member

By now I suspect that all members of AEC12OA have received the results from the past Poll.

It is good to see that only numbers were passed to ARYA (Mr Dobbie) for obvious Privacy Reasons. Hopefully Mr Morris now supports such publications in regards to Privacy .

This aside the results throw up several things..

Ken Dobbies List AEC12OA List

45 names 70 names

18 removed 20 removed

27 votes 50 votes

20 Yes 40yes

7 No 10 No

74% 80%

As you can see 74% on one list and 80% on the other want to see the changes out lined on the voting document happen. The difference in numbers between the two lists should be a wakeup call to us all that EC12 affairs need to be handled better in the future for the class to grow.

Not wanting to put a dampner on the beliefs but Mr Dobbie as far as I am aware made a commitment to abide by an outcome where 2/3 of owners supported the Positive Transfer of control to AEC12OA.

Now the reference must also be made to the Interim Association Policy (accompanying the results)

(a) That 2/3rd of registered owners in the class are in favour of and intend to seek membership of the NCA.

Taking these words as they are written (no other way).. Then the result is not so clear cut.

Using Mr Dobbie's figures a result of 44.4% is achieved & AEC12OA figures 57.14%

Neither of which meets the 66.6% approval requirement.

Using the criteria strictly set by Mr Dobbie then unfortunately you cannot disregard ABSTAINED Votes.. They simplty do not support the outcome. ie That 2/3rd of registered owners in the class are in favour...

It is all about how the Vote is counted.. Unfortunately It has nothing to do with the Majority of those that Vote or chose to vote..

Like I said to Mr Morris well in advance of the Vote... Make Absolutely sure of how the Vote is to be Counted & Make sure everything is in writing & published before even calling for a vote. A Complete Open & Transparent Process.. Othewise it can be challenged..

Because those that chose not to vote can simply say they did not support the AEC12OA proposal. And then it fails.. As it does on this occasion..

Either 44.4% or 57.14%... Both are below the 66.6% requirement.

What does the Future Hold for the EC12.. Not part of the inner circle so in the dark as much as everybody else. disbelief

John

-- Edited by waboats on Monday 28th of November 2011 02:26:42 PM

waboats · Senior Member

Ron

Public Officer isn't mentioned in my copy of the ARYA Agenda..

Some interesting proposals this year, but nothing for EC12 other than the Interim Association Policy they want to try to get through as their last footprint.

To change a Public Officers needs to be done in terms of the SA Legislation. Unless the person is deceased there is no need to change yearly or even acknowledge the position.

Even with such high responsibilities attached to the position. blankstare

-- Edited by waboats on Monday 28th of November 2011 09:56:34 AM

Wargames · Member

Very interesting, so the public officer stays the same....in south Australia ?.

waboats · Senior Member

For those taht are not aware, here are teh Nominations for this years ARYA Committee & NCC's

ELECTION OF OFFICERS

The following candidates have been nominated for office:-

President - L. Walker (Qld) Nominated NSW and Qld

Vice President - W. Clancy (Qld) Nominated by Qld.

Secretary - No Nomination.

Treasurer - M. Bell (WA) Nominated by WA.

Registrar - D. Weizman (NSW) Nominated by NSW and P Morris (Qld) Nominated by Qld

Technical Officer - R. Hales(NSW) Nominated by NSW

Publicity Officer - A. Stuart (WA) Nominated by WA.

Class Co-ordinators (Non Executive positions)

10 Rater Class - F. Russell (NSW) Nominated by NSW

Marblehead Class - M. Harris (Qld) Nominated by Qld

A Class - G. Bromley (NSW) Nominated by NSW

One Metre Class - T. Brown (Qld) Nominated by Qld

EC12 Class - C. Durran (NSW) Nominated by NSW

RC Laser Class - R. Popham (WA) Nominated by WA

Looks to be only one Vote Required & that is for ARYA Registrar. Not sure an Association can legally function without a Secretary...

Hopefully the Link of Membership of Associations (proposed by AEC12OA) is not a Future Trend that will be linked into every other class.

Very Surprised Mr Morris hasn't put his hand up for EC12 NCC..

Registrations & NCC could have a Strong influence on the Future of every class, including the EC12.

Cheers

John

-- Edited by waboats on Saturday 26th of November 2011 02:57:10 PM

waboats · Senior Member

It is now some time since I received the following assurances from Mr Morris (1st November )

In any case there was never a closing date canvassed with members and it was implicit in my opinion that the members would be adequately briefed at the appropriate time in order to understand the results of the ballot. We shall shortly be addressing the membership with a breakdown of the results of the vote without revealing how individuals voted for obvious reasons.

And over a week since Don posted a request for information.

I can but question what has happened & when the promised clarifications will eventually turn up.

The members aren't even aware of the outcome of the Vote so what was the whole point of a Ballot in the first place?

Or is it back to behind doors sniping & Nothing has Changed... The more things change the more they stay the same.

John

waboats · Senior Member

Gesst wrote:
John,
When I said that it may not meet the specs it's because being a 70's vintage hull and some of the powers to be out there want nothing other than the post 95 spec hull. That said if those people prevail then both my Mini Mariners are out the door leaving only the NZ built hull and we both know what the current thinking on that is.

Harry

Harry

Have to say this is one aspect of the EC12 that really gets me angry. (not your doing of course)

From a Lines Plan drawn up in the 60's & based on a Tank Model we are left with a boat that has so many conflicts in measurement.

To say an Original Boat now doesn't or wouldn't measure is ridiculous in my opinion.

The measurement guidelines don't even require strict compliance to One Design principles.

It seems to me in formulating the 2008 Rules they all but forgot about the Origins of the Boat.

But that as it is, my biggest concern to the constant reference to Approved Builders.. Are most of these Guys Still Alive & are capable of building a Hull...

And here is Mr M with a New Mould & he refuses to have it measured so that it can be officially recognised & commence producing boats.

Reading the rules my guess is that any Original Spec EC12 boat would measure quite comnfortably or at the very least it can't be shut out given the preamble to the rules

My feeling is THE DEAL wont allow hulls to be manufactured from the 60's spec US Mould, while other hulls exist.

So why isn't the US Mould in production & making hulls for New Skippers..

Or maybe the Class needs to become the Australian East Coast 12 (AEC12).

Maybe that is why we have the AEC12OA... Maybe they realised the EC12 in Australia is NOW a different boat.

Gesst · Veteran Member

John,
When I said that it may not meet the specs it's because being a 70's vintage hull and some of the powers to be out there want nothing other than the post 95 spec hull. That said if those people prevail then both my Mini Mariners are out the door leaving only the NZ built hull and we both know what the current thinking on that is.

Harry

waboats · Senior Member

Harry

MAY is about the gist of it.. About MAY is when the proposal will get resubmitted with Mr M in charge.

The HUll is very poor condition & is the home for a couple of Bobtail Lizards over winter... When it lobbed here in WA it was going to be used but not a similar boat in sight. I think it got put aside about then. Paperwork is being hunted.. But I can assure you it measures as an EC12.

But my mate has decided to pull the deck & fill the hull with foam & then reinforce so he can make a Plug for a mould. It will become a WC12 (West Coast 12, ..) smile

He doesn't care... much like me..

Gesst · Veteran Member

Hi John,

I did say that there may be change in the in the executive, not that there has been change, just as you intimated that he may step down.

If you have found a hull please don't just toss it out as these are much too pretty a boat to just abandon and forget.

Make it a labour of love and try to rebuild it. Yes I know that you already own about five million boats and couldn't possibly take on another one.

It probably won't meet current specs but then neither does a Mini Mariner hull being nearly 1.5 inches shorter than spec. based on that every Mini Mariner boat should be disqualified from competing.

I agree with you that Don has tried his best, when I first came across this forum I read nearly every post in every thread to familiarise myself with the person and his ideas and in every post I read I could sense the frustration.

Harry

waboats · Senior Member

Harry

I may have been a little hasty.. Privately that is what Mr Morris is saying... Publicly it is the complete opposite... Only reason why you say one thing & do another...

So I am totally confused... It is the same as the Proposal.. Say One thing but do another..

The whole idea of an EC12 in WA is not proceeding. We found an original US Hull brought in by my mates Father in Law back in the late 70's when he landed from US.

The hull is pretty banged up but it could be very handy in making a mould. Given its' age it certainly would measure... But not worth the cost to refurbish.

Under the current Rules ... Off to the Tip... And the One Mould Future Rule wouldn't change things either.

I know without a forum & place to ask questions everything falls into a big black hole of suspicion..

Without a commitment to provide information then the EC12 is doomed to history & the small few who sail them. It can't grow if there isn't anything out there to guide & encourage new owners.

Don has done his best. smile .

Those in Charge & Control have not.... cry

Gesst · Veteran Member

Hi all,

May I suggest that rather than close the EC12 thread that it in fact be kept and advertised as being in existence. My reason for suggesting this are twofold, firstly in the absence of any other forum currently in which to share and communicate any information and secondly given waboats (John) post that there may be change in the AEC12OA executive surely it is advantageous to try and unite those skippers that seemed to have had issues with Mr. Morris previously and chose not to support his agenda.

Harry

waboats · Senior Member

Mav

If you are looking at the current situation then all I can impart is

Through a credible & informed source from Queensland it is clear that Mr Morris is intending (if he hasn't already) resigning from the position of President of AEC12OA.

His reasons are his own so I would respectfully suggest & request as a financial member of the AEC12OA that this information be publicly made official or not so that the class can move forward.

It is time to end the secrecy within Radio Sailing at all levels.

Cheers

John

Viking · Veteran Member

-- Edited by Viking on Friday 30th of December 2011 05:05:10 PM

waboats · Senior Member

Harry

My Bad.... I probably should have said it better.. Frustration is taking hold...

Probably what I meant to say is from a Lines Plan I can make my Own Mould & then cast the Hull Myself..

If the Rules say F/Glass then so be it.. I would use modern F/Glass materials.

Once it Measures, Then It Measures as an EC12.. And we stop the limitations on who can & can't build one... What they can & can't do...

If the Hull needs weighing before casting the lead then so be it. If the lead needs to be weighted, that can be done as well...

It really comes down to opening up the rules to allow for a simple easy build boat that you can do yourself or can find one easily...

My thoughts were it should be ALL about the Boat...

EC12 Class Association & if needed add on (Australian Branch)

As you say ONE SET of INTERNATIONAL RULES, that's if they really & truly want an International Recognised Class

For now.. Well Enough has been said.... disbelief

Cheers

John

-- Edited by waboats on Wednesday 9th of November 2011 03:28:39 PM

-- Edited by waboats on Wednesday 9th of November 2011 03:29:03 PM

Gesst · Veteran Member

G'day John,

I understand completely how you feel at the moment but I just can't agree that you should be allowed to build an EC12 out of whatever you like. Personally I have no problems with a fibreglass hull or in fact any of the other restrictions that are in place. As the EC12 is a heavy boat it is not a problem building to minimum weight using "old school" technology. If you were to relax the permitted materials and allow anything and everything then I fear that would long term disadvantage more people, as the "money boys" who have no problems throwing dollars at their boats would make a competitive boat out of reach of the likes of you and me.

I feel that it is not he restrictions that are draconian, rather, I feel it is the administration of the rules.

The current US and NZ rules are more than sufficient to enable a class to go ahead and as I have previously stated on here, those are the rules that I would like to see implememted in their entirety, not this mess that purports to be the "Australian" EC12 class. There should be just one class world wide, and that class is the EC12, no other qualification needed. Why is the Owners Association called the Australian EC12 Owners Association and not the EC12 Owners Association, we already know that we are in Australia.

Harry

waboats · Senior Member

For me the future of the EC12 Class no longer rests with F/Glass Moulds.

Somewhere a Lines Plan needs to be drawn up so any builder can take the plan & go about doing their own thing. Build it out of whatever they like.

If it measures it's an EC12..

This trying to find a past mould, builder & then proving manufacture is driven by a desire to constrain & limit the class.

Unless these draconian restrictions are relaxed then the class is doomed in politics of old new past & present. Nothing has changed..

I have acquired a very very old hull & I am informed it is 30-40+ years old & of US manufacture. Who knows & Who cares... Lots of work & maybe better to hand off to somebody keen on a project (I have enough on my plate).

I wonder how it would look converted to a motor launch...

waboats · Senior Member

Well push came to shove & as a Financial Member not getting any response to anything from the AEC12OA it was time to go direct to the man who visits regular, reads EC12 Forum Posts & has an email alert to any post. Yes Mr Morris.

The resposes I received are even more insultiung than before but that is for him to judge himself.

For now the most important aspects deal with the Points. Personally I don't think he actually understood the question & we ended up with just another rant.

3.How is this progressing & how is the Status of Measurers to be Determined. If the Class grows outside of NSW & Qld, who can become a licenced/approved measurer?

I have only just learned today from Clyde that he has indeed submitted the results of the vote to ARYA and he apparently did this prior to leaving for NZ two weeks ago unbeknownst to me. He omitted to inform either David or myself that he had done so. In any case there was never a closing date canvassed with members and it was implicit in my opinion that the members would be adequately briefed at the appropriate time in order to understand the results of the ballot. We shall shortly be addressing the membership with a breakdown of the results of the vote without revealing how individuals voted for obvious reasons. This information is only known to the 3 of the executive and Ken Dobbie who the poll was commissioned for.

You obviously are poorly informed in regard to the measurement criteria and process as it applies to any recognized radio sailing boat. The measurement thing will not change and any accredited ARYA club measurer is entitled to measure EC12's according to whatever current rule base is in place at any given time. The ultimate intention is to harmonize the rule base eventually so that all EC12 sailing countries will operate under the same identical rule base. This has always been part of the OA strategy all along and nothing has changed in that respect. This is just a hoped for outcome for the future. In the meantime the current ARYA regime prevails and it suffices as far as your needs are concerned for measurement matters. So your old boat that you apparently own can easily go through the registration process using any ARYA measurer who can access a current copy of the rules and as long as your boat issues from a previously or current recognized mould (I am assuming that the boat has previously been registered or has an identifiable pedigree). So now you can see an aspect of the ARYA provided measurement and registration service that facilitates the proliferation process that we would like to have in place to promote the class interstate. Under the current ARYA system any person put up by their sailing club and being a paid up member and therefore affiliated to ARYA even if only through the insurance scheme that ARYA provides, can become a measurer.

5. Membership stickers for boats would suggest that a Registration of a Boat is dependent on a membership to an Owner Association. Which in my view is completely against what a Registered & Approved Boat is all about. Once Registered a Boat cannot become unregistered in any other class so what is the discussion revolving around & what are the implications should this pass.

The registration sticker idea is to further ram home the authority of the OA over our class. It makes sense and promotes a sense of ownership and belonging of the member not to mention how a system of this kind could finally round up the phenomenon of our boats disappearing into the ether on occasion and become totally lost.We hope to oblige all owners of boats via this established procedure to alert the OA of the disposal of their boat and the identity and details of the new owner and the contemplation of them also becoming members of the OA as a result of the sale process.

Don't you see John why it is so vitally important that the OA take on an imposing perspective leaving no one in any doubt as to the lead role that the OA plays and how mightily important it is to the well being and health of our class going into the future. This OA stuff properly implemented is ground breaking as far as radio sailing is concerned particularly here in Australia. It is so vitally important for all of us to be on the same page and not tearing ourselves apart internally.

So you are right in your assumption in that whatever we as an OA can do to own members body and soul and have the boats in an official and substantial registration process overseen by the OA, so much the better. The current system overseen by ARYA is inefficient in the extreme with absolutely no value placed on the registration of a boat. Would you believe that there are approx 200 or so EC12's that have been registered over the years and at this present point in time we can only identify and locate approx one quarter of them!

I hope this information assists you in better understanding what we are on about and that we really are not the enemy. The OA is designed specifically to make life easier and more ordered for owners and the boats. It is time we entered the 21st century and all the opportunity that an OA offers in terms of promoting our class and providing a dynamic and exciting future with great sailing events and a proper say in what is going to happen and be done with our class as we progress towards proper international status. Then we will really be cooking. If the OA fails and does not eventuate due to dissent from within, then we are doomed I feel and the class here in Australia will slowly pass into history. That will be a great loss.

-- Edited by waboats on Thursday 3rd of November 2011 09:48:47 AM

waboats · Senior Member

OK well here goes nothing.. Unlikely to get a response but we'll see..

From the AEC12OA AGM Minutes dated 2nd October 2011

General Business:

Discussion on developing an EC12 website for members. Peter Morris to investigate possibilities.
The mail out to EC12 owners with voting forms etc was discussed with 36 responses received so far with the majority supporting the aims of the association.
Secretary to check with QRYA re the status of Garry Taylor as measurer.
Discussion on the benefits of AE12OA running EC12 register as the records currently held by ARYA are not correct due to EC12 owners not notifying any changes.
Membership stickers for boats which would be renewable annually discussed.
Discussion on the incorporation of the association which is currently incorporated in Queensland but has a limitation for the secretarys position having to be a Queensland resident or close to the border. The issue with this is obvious for the future growth of the association and Clyde will investigate options for the future.

My Points :

1: How is this progressing & what form of Information is to be made avaialable. Is this for MEMBERS ONLY or will there be an avenue for prospective interested skippers/owners be available?

2. 36 Votes returned as at 2nd October but no mention of Closing Date nor current results. when will tehy become available to ALL, including AEC12OA members.

3. How is this progressing & how is the Status of Measurers to be Determined. If the Class grows outside of NSW & Qld, who can become a licenced/approved measurer? I assume the Garry Taylor mentioned is the new forum member GT?

4. If the EC12 register & the records currently held by ARYA are not correct due to EC12 owners not notifying any changes, then how is it possible to run a Process & Voting of Members & Owners without there being some question on who can & Can't vote on a change of control. Surely there must be a process taht is palatable to all concerned persons & one which provides for a proper outcome, especially when 2/3 (66.6%) approval is supposed to be required?

5, Membership stickers for boats would suggest taht a Registration of a Boat is dependent on a membership to an Owner Association. Which in my view is completely against what a Registered & Approved Boat is all about. Onces Registered a Boat cannot become unregistered in any other class so what is teh discussion revolving around & what are teh implications should this pass.

6. Discussion on the incorporation of the association would mean taht if the Secretary is Not resident within Qld or 65km from teh border tehn a NEW Constitution would need to be esatblished and Incorporation sought in another state where such restrictions are not required. Currently ALL Clubs/Associations Incorporated in Qld must comply with the Associations Incorporations Act 1891 & its' Regulations. It cannot choose to disregard that sections which are unpalatable & only adhere to those that suit. In this case it is indeed Unity or Death. All or Nothing. To avoid teh Act can put the Association at risk of losing Incorporation Statius & teh protection this provides to ALL Members.

-- Edited by waboats on Monday 31st of October 2011 03:30:24 PM

-- Edited by waboats on Monday 31st of October 2011 04:34:19 PM

Gesst · Veteran Member

Hi Bob,

A wise move on your part to not start a new topic. In the long run it would only degenerate to the sort of slanging match that you have now so a new topic would solve nothing and possibly only add fuel to the fire by providing another thread in which to vent.

Nothing will settle till the results of voting are known and that decision rests purely and soley with Peter. If Peter is succsessful in wresting control of the class away from the ARAY then I believe a whole new storm in a tea cup will commence.

Gaining control will not repair the damage that has been caused, mainly between NSW and Qld. In that regard I believe there will be a very long and protracted process of bridge building and fence mending. Or ....there may be no way to repair in this lifetime and they choose to go their own way.

As for myself I have now started a new owners association with myself as the sole member and therefore, president, treasurer and secretary ... plus chief cook and bottle washer and answerable to no one other than myself.

Take time out to smell the roses .... and then build a boat.

Harry

waboats · Senior Member

Bob

I think that the veracity of the sentiment expressed by the suggested Leader & spokesperson of the AEC12OA is such tha there might just be a divide that cannot be overcome.

The Silence in any regard to Justrify, Deny or God Forbid even apologise for the outbursts are such that there may be a feeling that there is no reason to endulge teh members.

I suspect that the Deal has been done & when the NEXT Executive arrive then there will be a Takeover of the Class by AEC12OA.

I am informed that the AGM elected Mr Morris as the President.. Problem is the Noimination one had a single proposer & No Seconder...

That in effect would & could make the assumption to the Position Invalid.. Qld Legislation requires certain things to happen in order for the election to be Validated..

Schedule 4 S19 of teh AIA 1981 (Regs)

19 Electing the manageent committe

(1) A member of the management committee may only be elected as follows

(a) any 2 members of the association may nominate another member (the

candidate) to serve as a member of the

management committee;

(b) the nomination must be

(i) in writing; and

(ii) signed by the candidate and the members who

nominated him or her; and

(iii) given to the secretary at least 14 days before the annual general meeting at which the election is to be held;

(c) each member of the association present and eligible to vote at the annual general meeting may vote for 1candidate for each vacant position on the management committee;

(d) if, at the start of the meeting, there are not enough candidates nominated, nominations may be taken from the floor of the meeting.

Reading the AGM Minutes this clearly did not happen...

So maybe there is something else that needs to be looked into before assuming who has & hasn't the right to speak on behalf of the AEC12OA...

Some want to play by the Rules so lets see the Honesty in actually dealing with the Rules that are required under Law.. Some like to spruik rules but only when tehy are supported.. When they are in the worng they run & hide & pretend not to see or hear... Pretty much what happens in ARYA Circles constantly...

Rightly or Wrongly the election was flawed & is Invalidated.. Regardless of support levels this needs to be rectified..

Peter as an honourable man should step aside & make sure the process is followed correctly.

Cheers

John

Viking · Veteran Member

-- Edited by Viking on Friday 30th of December 2011 05:03:10 PM

waboats · Senior Member

Harry

My apologies if my post suggested that Mr Morris' comments were direct at you personally. That was never my intention.

I was merely intending to show & suggest that such comments are inappropriate to be levelled at anybody.. Whether in Frustration or as a result of some other emotional outbursts.

A simple apology & moving forward being the best way of dealing with such situations.

Although I haven't slagged off directly at Peter, he may feel that I have. Which is not surprising given some of the past posts.

The Future of the EC12 Class & that of Radio Sailing within Australia rests in doing things differently than what has been done in the past & continues to be done in the present.

I say embrace the questions & deal with any supposed negative sentiment & work together to find concensus,. From there with compromise all things are possible.

In Peters defence a wise man once said...

If you want to make enemies, try to change something.. WOODROW T WILSON

By that I mean to communicate, there will always be difference of opinion & some will see enemies that exist purely because of the disagreement.

ARYA History results in all out war & recriminations when such things happen.. It is simply the way things have always been done..Wrong as it is, That alone is one trait that certainly needs fixing...

Cheers

John

-- Edited by waboats on Saturday 29th of October 2011 09:31:49 PM

Gesst · Veteran Member

Gentlemen, I must respond here and state that Mr. Morris has not at any time leveled any kind of invective against me. While his comments on the whole have been more damaging than contructive none of those comments have ever been directed personally at me.

Not being affiliated or a member of anything I have never had a need to ask a question of Mr. Morris so there has never been a situation where Mr. Morris would see fit to excommunicate me from the due process of club membership.

To the gent that suggested that "It is no good for anyone to sit back and take potshots at anyone" he may care to go back and read the posts and then he may notice that no one on this forum has taken potshots. I believe that what they have done is to voice genuine concerns and ask questions that at best went ignored and unanswered or at worst the member was attacked, usually by private message.

-- Edited by Gesst on Saturday 29th of October 2011 07:30:35 PM

Viking · Veteran Member

-- Edited by Viking on Friday 30th of December 2011 05:01:38 PM

waboats · Senior Member

GT wrote:
Peter Morris is no angel and sometimes lets his feelings rip because of the frustrations he encounters, but I can ensure everyone that his one purpose is the good of the class and I know that he spends countless hours to that end......

.....I am not going to get into personnal attacks on anyone, but by reading recent forums it is not information being exchanged but personnal insults.

So lets put an end to it and get back to what the forum is all about, a FRIENDLY EXCHANGE OF INFORMATION FOR THE GOOD OF THE CLASS.

Garry (GT)

I am more than happy to agree with what you are saying... Indeed things are & have deteriorated a little..

Nobody on this earth is an Angel nor is beyond personal responsibility for their actions.

So when you say... So lets put an end to it and get back to what the forum is all about, a FRIENDLY EXCHANGE OF INFORMATION FOR THE GOOD OF THE CLASS.

The only question I would have is how would this be made possible.. confuse

Maybe it's close ranks & refuse to supply or exchange any Information with OA Members, especially those that are not 100% on side & then walk away from the Only place that EC12 issues get discussed outside the little clicks..

That unfortunately is the Current Situation that exists. And who's fault is that & who is the only one that can rectify this situation.. wink

In my opinion this is the exact reason that things between NSW & Qld skippers have deteriorated over time.. What Trust exists that can go beyond the platitudes.

Open & Transparent Exchange of Ideas & Information is all good for any class..

The current problem that people are talking about is the Refusal to engage anybody who asks a simple question. When one is asked the person asking is ostracised & berated for whatever reason... And if I see your meaning correctly, this is exactly what needs to be overcome.

Peter for all his passion & Ideas needs to embrace everybody involved whether they be Owners, Members, Skippers, Interested bystanders & pretty much the whole Community. Not just those that agree with his philosophy.. I'm still 50%-50% but I tend to think huge fences need mending if the Class is to reinvigorate itself. ashamed

The current situation with all of its' flaws isn't the answer in my opinion.. Proper & Open Exchange of Information is the only way forward.. .

Cheers

John

Member: AEC12OA

-- Edited by waboats on Saturday 29th of October 2011 01:23:05 PM

waboats · Senior Member

Gesst wrote:
Ultimately I expect that the OA will prevail but at the expense of the class to the point where there may not be a class any more. I am guessing that there is major friction between NSW and Qld. but what the cause of this friction is I don't know. I suspect that NSW being the more populous state that there will be a correspondingly higher level of boat ownership in that state, now as Mr. Morris has described and I quote in part from the message I received from him
""The mean spiritedness of some owners in NSW. Some of them are complete arseholes who I am very keen to see the last of"" and another one ""I find it breath taking that all the bastards down there in NSW who speak ill of me behind my back on one hand and on the other are quite prepared to "horn in" on an event like the Morgan Black??? The mind boggles when I think about the ungrateful bastardry of some of them!""
Now I may be wrong but I would think that based on those statements alone that most NSW skippers would be voting no and so that leaves a very small amount of skippers in Qld who possibly are in tune with Mr. Morris in which case he will possibly achieve the result he so desperately craves.

Harry

Here I was thinking that I was the only One getting such comments & the sharp edge from Mr Morris.

I feel for his passion for HIS Class cry & I do see the investment he has emplyed to be quite large.

But that makes no excuse for his Back-Door Sniping & Disrespect of fellow class members & Skippers in General. The words he has expressed to you ouside the forum (but as a result of your informed posts) can only add to the picture & the real agenda.

Anybody who voted NO are clearly in danger of never being considered a part of the Class anymore (or maybe never were) & they willl be dealt with sooner rather than later..

I think the problem comes down to what ocurred in the US rather than here in Australia.. I hear Peter felt quite embarassed when he arrived to compete & his boat just wasn't up to scratch.. Somebody forgot to tell him they changed the playing field. He eventually managed to compete after some modifications & assistance from others.. Peter can put more detail if he chooses..

From there this whole issue of complying with US Standards evolved, with a DEAL being hatched...

So what exactly were the requirements of THE DEAL.... If the Mould doesn't pass Australian Muster does it go back for a Refund... These would be Rare beasts indeed so much sought after... confuse

Cheers

John

-- Edited by waboats on Saturday 29th of October 2011 10:16:14 AM

-- Edited by waboats on Saturday 29th of October 2011 10:24:07 AM

GT · Newbie

I thought the this forum was for the exchange of information not personal sniping by a few. It is no good for anyone to sit back and take potshots at anyone willing to try to accomplish getting REAL results.

If a person does not like the direction that something is taken they are free to stand for a position to push for a change (I was at the last Owners association meeting and there where no nominations for positions) therefore is everyone happy with the direction taken?

Peter Morris is no angel and sometimes lets his feelings rip because of the frustrations he encounters, but I can ensure everyone that his one purpose is the good of the class and I know that he spends countless hours to that end.

As president, Peter is the spokesman for the owners association and as such it is his postion to voice the opinion of those involved. These ideals are not just his own but are a combination of ideas and opinions from individual competitors and owners from competing at all regattas and club meets.

There are announcements being made by forum users before there is information at hand, ie. the Morgan Black was announced by one person who then demanded more information before anything had been put in place by those in the position to organise such events.

Some on this forum demand information immediately, but that is not always practical, some have other lives and the posting of information may be slow but it will happen.

I am not going to get into personnal attacks on anyone, but by reading recent forums it is not information being exchanged but personnal insults.

So lets put an end to it and get back to what the forum is all about, a FRIENDLY EXCHANGE OF INFORMATION FOR THE GOOD OF THE CLASS.

Gesst · Veteran Member

Good evening to both Bob and John and anyone that may have an interest,

This is my first post for quite some time as I have deliberately refrained form making any comments regarding anything to do with EC12's. My reason for doing so has been due to me not having a direct vested interest in the voting process currently in motion.

I admit that I am confused by the reluctance to publish any results, the only thing I can put it down to is that there is now more confusion than before. I too have had a private message on this forum from Mr. Morris in which on the one hand he asks me to join the OA and yet on the other hand is completely dismissive of me. Mr Morris seems to enjoy portraying himself in a good light, being a champion of all things good and then cutting the legs out from underneath anyone that doesn't share his viewpoint. At best I would describe him as being somewhat delusional and at worst suffering from a mild case of MPD.

Ultimately I expect that the OA will prevail but at the expense of the class to the point where there may not be a class any more. I am guessing that there is major friction between NSW and Qld. but what the cause of this friction is I don't know. I suspect that NSW being the more populous state that there will be a correspondingly higher level of boat ownership in that state, now as Mr. Morris has described and I quote in part from the message I received from him ""The mean spiritedness of some owners in NSW. Some of them are complete arseholes who I am very keen to see the last of"" and another one ""I find it breath taking that all the bastards down there in NSW who speak ill of me behind my back on one hand and on the other are quite prepared to "horn in" on an event like the Morgan Black??? The mind boggles when I think about the ungrateful bastardry of some of them!"" Now I may be wrong but I would think that based on those statements alone that most NSW skippers would be voting no and so that leaves a very small amount of skippers in Qld who possibly are in tune with Mr. Morris in which case he will possibly achieve the result he so desperately craves.

While I was at the Nationals in Chipping Norton and Peter spoke to me about racing my three boats and having them measured, to which I replied" Probably not" he then asked me if was going to join the OA to which once again I replied in the negative and mentioned that due to distance I would not be able to travel to any contests or even sail with a club. His parting statement was as I have said on here before "Well you're no good to us", not once stopping to try and explain what the aims and objectives of the OA were and how it would benefit me to join. I don't know if at that stage Peter had already resigned his position as NCC but he was most certainly the President of the OA and not once did he attempt to introduce himself or explain anything. It was simply a case of if you are not with us then you must be against us.

I wish Mr. Morris well in his endeavours.

Meanwhile, I will keep plodding along and build my boats.

-- Edited by Gesst on Saturday 29th of October 2011 12:08:01 AM

waboats · Senior Member

Bob

I think what is most disturbing is the Desire to avoid publishing the TRUE process of the Voting...

My guess is that Peter would suggest everything is out there but I would question the Verasity & Correctness of the whole process..

I agree wholely with what Harry said about the need to move things forward.. And maybe even look to eventually have a One Design set of rules similar if not exactly like the US..

Things from the US EC12 Scene are not as rosy as some would like us to imagine. There were skippers lost & tossed aside along the way.

The one thing that concerns me is the makeup of the ARYA Structure... For any recognition by them they say certain criteria must be met...

From there the Boats/Class gets to project itself more openly & with an appearance of Australia Wide acceptance.

Currently the EC12 fails the Standard for recognition so as far as I am aware then the Class is Monitored & Controlled by the Individual States & by default the Clubs that sail the boat.

No special circumstances should be allowed to give one organisation power & control over another.. The ARYA cannot & Should NOt engage this porocess as it does not have jurisdiction nor can it Decide the Fate of any class.

I suppose the class fell away quite a few years ago & now is unfortunately labouring in the doldrums trying to get back to where it once was.. Where it is now is what we must address, history is already written.

In one of my posts I mention the possiblity of a two pronged approach & the more I hear the more likely it will become.

I think you will find that there will be a seperation on State Lines with Qld & NSW doing their own things.. If they get to compete against each other then that will be down to what rules are at play on any given day.

For me I have to say the attraction to obtain a boat (Old or New) has wained & gone by the wayside.. Far too much political posturing by some to gain control... Seems to be more engrained in a few mill here & a few mill there & pettifogging around who is the best person to decide the future..

All I can say is the longer it goes on the worse things are getting. Peter might think he is right & be damned what others think.. But I have to say his approach has not been quite as honest as it was first projected...

HIs tirades & his messages are a clear indication that what is said is not where things are heading. And from the Face to Face conversations I have had I would be even more concerned...

But that is all a simple question when Peter & The Crew stay silent... They have an Agenda.. We all Know That... The Agenda just doesn't consider anything other than what their Desires are..

The Unfotunate Outcome will only mean even less EC12's on the water & an eventual demise of the class at any level..

UNITY or DEATH...

On a lighter side, but quite interesting when one seeks to Bite off more than one can chew... Things sometimes can turn around & Bite You Back...

Stupid ... Death... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6C6VNBuH8k&feature=related

..

Viking · Veteran Member

-- Edited by Viking on Friday 30th of December 2011 05:00:13 PM

waboats · Senior Member

Bob

I have not posted the content of the PM nor my reply to which Peter has made subtle & limited reference to.

I will not do so until after the Vote is complete & that is the end of this week by the previous post. I may do so in summary following the close (next week). Or complete if context is needed. Transparent ashamed

My belief is that this PM could indeed influence the vote as it does bear out some inconsistencies & a part reason for me reconsidering my position. Like you I suppose I have read the Posts on the Forum (which are usually thought out) & have become dismayed at the strong rhetoric & content. This is not an emotional outburst in frustration but in my view calculated. disbelief

To do anything different would be suicide.. The content of posts may not reflect the whole position & as such doubts like the Influence of ARYA both now & in the future concern me deeply. Asking simple questions & a war breaks out is also of concern, especially when the members are asking the questions.. disbelief

Perhaps it would be better to get a committed NCC in place to progress a compromised & conciliatory proposal rather than a With US or Against Us proposal, Unity or Death etc....

Peter has done several things wrong IMHO.. Resigning the NCC, Leaving a Forum etc.. Both examples where 100% not supported..

So it's either step in line or You are NOW classified as Stupid... That I did take as an Insult...

Context is everthing in my mind especially when a single sentence can provide such deep insight into the mindset of the author..

Cheers

John

Viking · Veteran Member

-- Edited by Viking on Friday 30th of December 2011 04:58:39 PM

waboats · Senior Member

Bob

Yes I have a loaner up in Brisbane... That way I have a boat to sail when I visit.. Not sure if he is a member of Logan but lives close.

Good to hear that the Logan Boat Club is going along strongly.. They have an informal information thread on the RCGroups website.. Lots of photos & Video

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=665257&highlight=logan

Peter

Your Highlight says it ALL --- 2008 Rules...

Still no Authority & can't operate & control any Owners/Class Association under the ARYA constitution... That is down to S21 of the Constitution.. Deal with that First....

So I beg to differ on why the ARYA is allowed to continue suggesting it has the Authority.. I think it has more to do with you and others not willing to take a proper Stand & rest the Control Back to members where it is proper..

Can't really take a strong stand because there may be an ARC UP & Consequences..

It was broke many years ago.. Just nobody has the bottle to stand their ground & fix the problem .. Instead we pander & play silly games...

The Authority rests with owners & members not some Administrators who don't give a buggar anyway...

If you pander to such trivial agendas then my Answer is even more Strongly NO.. evileye

Cheers

John

PS Peter you seem to be making reference to my reply to your pm retort.. Mixing up PM's with posts perhaps.. Would you like me to provide my reply so there can be no confusion & the reason I have asked what I asked.. confuse

Maybe you can make sense of the contradictions. As you know I'm all about transparency.

-- Edited by waboats on Friday 7th of October 2011 11:23:07 PM

-- Edited by waboats on Friday 7th of October 2011 11:51:49 PM

Viking · Veteran Member

-- Edited by Viking on Friday 30th of December 2011 04:57:44 PM

Straw · Member

You wanted to know why ARYA is involved in all of this, then I refer you to the first page of the Australian EC12 class rules. I think you will see why there is no way around the precedent that was established 3 decades or more ago. See how many times the ARYA logo is referred to in red ink.

AUSTRALIAN EC 12 ONE DESIGN CLASS

CLASS RULES

2008

INTRODUCTION

The class began as a towing tank testing model for a proposed design to defend the America Cup. The designer was Charles Morgan and the nick-name for the proposed design was Eagle. Buddy Black used the 9/10 inch = 1 foot model as a plug for making the first mould. Yachts were first produced in the late 1960s. The first Championship was sailed (in the USA) in 1971.

A full history of the Class may be found in the Manual for EC12s.

1 GENERAL

(a) The intention of the Class Rules is to provide a one design specification for moulding of identical hulls from A.R.Y.A. Inc. approved moulds, while at the same time allowing all registered hulls and hulls that could have been registered (had they been presented for checking by a recognised measurer) to maintain their eligibility to compete as an EC12.

(b) The Australian EC12 class is a one-design radio controlled racing class.

(c) The class rules ensure all yachts, irrespective of age, are reasonably alike in all aspects affecting sailing performance.

(d) Anything not specifically permitted in these rules shall be referred, via the National Class Co-ordinator, to the A.R.Y.A. Inc Technical Officer for a ruling. When considering anything in connection with the yacht that is not established practice within the Class or is not clearly covered by the Class rules, you should not use any such departure in a recognised competition.

(e) When interpreting any rule, A.R.Y.A. Inc shall consider the intended meaning and shall bear in mind at all times, the basic principle of the Class Rules, which is to maintain the Australian EC12 as a one design class.

(f) The class insignia shall be the number 12 underlined. A line, a maximum length as the total width of the class insignia shall be placed under the class insignia, the line to have a minimum thickness of 2 mm.

(g) The class insignia and national letters (if used) shall not be less than the following dimensions: height 35 mm width 23 mm (except number 1) and thickness 5 mm. The minimum space between adjoining numerals or letters shall be 3 mm. The overall height of the class insignia to be 50 mm (minimum).

(h) The class insignia, national letters and sail number shall be placed as prescribed in Appendix E- Radio-controlled Boat Racing Rules of the RRS.

(i) These rules to remain unaltered until 31 December 2011 except for corrections, or unless, to reflect the wishes of a two thirds majority of owners.

waboats · Senior Member

Peter

Not surprised that you didn't post that little retort on the Forum.. I'll keep it to myself for now...

My reply should put you in no doubt where I stand..

Like I said I'm not 100% convinced that your Vision is the correct one..

I'm about 50% -50%

But I was prepared to give you the Opportunity to Succeed...

Likewise the encumbered & equal Opportunity to Fail

But certainly I did not give any authoruity for my Personal Details nor my Vote to be forwarded to ARYA.. They have NO Authority here & simply they have no say in what Owners Association members decide...

I think you need to find a way to communicate with the members & owners in a more appropriate manner to get the message across.. Banging On isn't getting it done.. In fact it is having the opposite effect..

I'm just one example where the more I read the less I like the alternative.. Mostly because it doesn't look to me as though there is an Alternative... Just more of the same but in a different sheeps outfit

Oh and by the way Peter.. The Name is JOHN

Cheers

John

-- Edited by waboats on Friday 7th of October 2011 08:54:49 PM

-- Edited by waboats on Friday 7th of October 2011 08:59:28 PM

Straw · Member

I have replied privately to WA Boats but if anyone wishes speedy attention to vote ammendment or resignation from the OA it would be best to send requests either direct to me or to the treasurer David Hill. Clyde is on holiday at present and unable to attend promptly to these requests and membership matters have been delegated to David Hill. All voting papers have been addressed to me and vote alteration can be verified by email direct to me so that it can be duly recorded on the primary voting list that will be forwarded to ARYA in due course as previously indicated. It will not be necessary to supply a fresh voting document.

Viking · Veteran Member

-- Edited by Viking on Friday 30th of December 2011 04:56:49 PM

waboats · Senior Member

....To say that I am up to there with all of this is definitely an understatement and one way or the other I will be gratified when it all comes to an end. May it not be too far off. ....
....The secretary is now in possession of the bulk of the voting papers and
will in due course collate the information and deliver the original signed voting papers to ARYA for their determination.
How long it will take ARYA in its deliberations is unknown and if the past is anything to go by, one should be well advised not to hold one's breath!
I shall not be so presumptuous to attempt to preempt the ultimate outcome of this submission as far as ARYA is concerned, but what I would like to take the opportunity to say is thank you to all those who bothered to submit their votes on this matter, both in the affirmative and in the negative.
I am weary of the task and it has taken a degree of toll on me. There has been both praise and abuse along the way and I have to say that I marvel at the degree of difference of opinion.
I completely sympathize with the sentiments of Albert Einstein when he mused about some people saying
"Two things are infinite:
the universe and human stupidity;
I'm not sure, however, about the universe".

I shall not be making further comment on this and will provide ARYA the courtesy of attending to this matter as they deem appropriate.

Straw

Peter

Forgive me for asking a silly question but I take it that you do not intend to publish the EC12OA vote on the control of the class.

You instead intend to allow the matter to go to the ARYA to decide if they accept the vote or not.

That in itself appears to me to leave the class in the exact position it now remains .. I find that unacceptable..

As a result of your assertions & given the preamble to the vote was written by yourself I would like to know the process to officially amend my vote.. As the Vote has not concluded I believe I would be entitled to such an amendment.

Therefore I would like to Officially amend my Vote on all matters & Questions posed to reflect a NO VOTE...

if this is not acceptable can you advise how I can do this officially

I do not see changing to one where a rubber stamp is required from another disinterested party prior to taking the direction of a Majority Vote by members as being an appropriate outcome.

An Owners Association is either upholding the Views & Voting rights of the Majority of Members or it is Not..

The ARYA has nothing to do with where the Owners & Association Members see as their rightful authority.

If the ARYA cannot abdicate from the Members wishes then they must step aside & the EC12OA must go it alone.

If the EC12OA cannot accept the members decision they it must also step aside...

Two Bob each way isn't a desirable outcome as it will remain a substitute 2 master system & one that is out of touch.. Just what you have been Banging On about for years..

Cheers

John

PS

I was thinking that perhaps your personal communications with Bob should remain there.. Just like you got Upset with me for publishing your comments, I suggest you address your own issues & perhaps staying consistent..

Compliment followed by a retort... disbelief

You ain't wrong about HUMAN STUPIDITY... That doesn't mean that disagreeing with your position is stupid...

Not sure why you reference it here but when read in context maybe ill advised.

Straw · Member

I break my assertion to not post here again, but felt it appropriate to briefly inform interested parties that the vote is drawing to a conclusion this week. We have been waiting for a few straggler votes to come in and we are down to the wire now. I know that Bob has asked for further info but I am not disposed to discuss specifics with anyone who has not bothered to respond with a vote on this matter nor am I inclined to reveal any info to non members. I know that Bob is none to happy with me at present but I would like to take the opportunity to personally thank Bob for his support over the last couple of years or so that this matter has dragged on. Our persnal relationship has also been a casualty of this process and I think that that outcome is possibly the thing that I most regret in all of this, win or lose! Thanks Bob.

To say that I am up to there with all of this is definitely an understatement and one way or the other I will be gratified when it all comes to an end. May it not be too far off. The AGM was held last weekend and office bearers were elected unopposed. Numerous ideas for the future were discussed and all members will receive copies of the minutes of the meeting and an update of relevant issues.

The secretary is now in possession of the bulk of the voting papers and will in due course collate the information and deliver the original signed voting papers to ARYA for their determination. How long it will take ARYA in its deliberations is unknown and if the past is anything to go by, one should be well advised not to hold one's breath!

I shall not be so presumptuous to attempt to preempt the ultimate outcome of this submission as far as ARYA is concerned, but what I would like to take the opportunity to say is thank you to all those who bothered to submit their votes on this matter, both in the affirmative and in the negative.

I am weary of the task and it has taken a degree of toll on me. There has been both praise and abuse along the way and I have to say that I marvel at the degree of difference of opinion.

I completely sympathize with the sentiments of Albert Einstein when he mused about some people saying

"Two things are infinite:

the universe and human stupidity;

I'm not sure, however, about the universe".

I shall not be making further comment on this and will provide ARYA the courtesy of attending to this matter as they deem appropriate.

Straw

-- Edited by Straw on Friday 7th of October 2011 08:31:56 AM

waboats · Senior Member

Bob

A very Good Question indeed

I haven't seen nor heard anything.. Don't even know if my vote arrived or was counted..

Certainly nothing in regards to the vote has been published on the Current EC12 Controllers site (ARYA).

Maybe the vote was very close or didn't go as well as expected.

I would hope that regardless of the outcome, the very least is the results are published.. From there everybody knows where they things stand & can move on with a degree of certainty.

One can only hope that Publication of the Results aren't too far away.

Cheers

John

-- Edited by waboats on Thursday 6th of October 2011 05:36:18 PM

Viking · Veteran Member

-- Edited by Viking on Friday 30th of December 2011 04:55:40 PM

waboats · Senior Member

Harry

GST : Now there is a Grossly Silly Tax... So it's 1.818 cents plus GST then...

I think your ideas & opinions are worth something more than 2c, in fact I was adjusting for Inflationary pressures wink

We agree that Peter perhaps is being a little rash.. I would like to hope he woud reconsider for the exact reasons you mention.

Tiered entry fees.. Difficult for the organiser but I have seen it work very well in the past... In Dog Shows (Yep done that too & that is even worse than YA) they have a similar structure to what you mention. If you enter more than 2 events it's cheaper to join the Association/Club & gain whatever benefits are there..

I see how the Morgan Black is more a Specific EC12 thing especially when the communication lines at the Top of ARYA aren't exactly aligned.. Getting the event up & running ASAP can only be a good thing.. Not unlike running National Events for Other Classes that the ARYA doesn't recognise.. This event can only bring together & benefit the Nations that run the class. ARYA in my opinion should be jumping at the opportunity of promoting this International Event. Leave the running & organising to EC12 guys & a win: win to all sides.. smile

Once people see how successful things are they usually like to jump on board & help run things... Or some would say then try to take over & change history..

Regardless of the ARYA outcomes I would suggest pressing ahead with organising specific events & promoting a culture of the Class that welcomes all skippers new & old.

Cheers

John

Like I say.. I could be wrong though... blankstare

-- Edited by waboats on Tuesday 13th of September 2011 07:03:41 PM

-- Edited by waboats on Tuesday 13th of September 2011 08:12:31 PM

Gesst · Veteran Member

John,

Sorry, but you can't round me up to 5c as 2c is below the mid point of the next highest coin you can only round me down. Does that make my submission now worthless?

Furthermore, sorry once again, but the one and two cent coins are still legal tender and as such can be used to pay for things purchased. See here http://www.ramint.gov.au/designs/ram-designs/2c.cfm

On to other stuff, I think Peter was being hasty in saying that he no longer wishes to post here, the same as I think he was hasty in relinquishing the NCC position a move that I think he too now regrets having made.

To matters regarding class specifics, the Morgan Black being the item of discussion if the OA feel so strongly about it then may I suggest a three tier fee levy. One level for members of the OA another for people who want to join then and there on the spot and a third higher fee for those people that wish to sail but not join the OA.

I agree with what you say about Peter being commended for what he has so far achieved and still wants to achieve. By having no forum to disseminate information makes it nigh on impossible to get any idea of what anyone wants, needs or even objects too.

Harry, still with two cents worth, GST included

waboats · Senior Member

G'day Gents & Ladies if you are reading..

Personally I think that the approach by a lot of people in Radio Sailing could be done a great deal better..

Throughout our lives we accumulate different skills in different areas.. Mine certainly isn't on the water & sailing the boat.. Put me in the Protest room with a proper independent jury & I would & could manage the outcome far better than most. That's mostly because I have a good grasp of rules regulations & the written word..

The simple rule of thumb is the Written Word always trumps the Intent.. If you mean something then that is what should be stated, and clearly. If not then you run a risk of others placing their meaning to your words... disbelief

Dancing around questions with a belief of some suspicious entrapment only leads to greater confusion from any reply.

This isn't restricted to EC12's but I believe is a symptom of many years of mis-management & poor process at ARYA Level. Some have come & gone trying their darndest to implement change only to be swallowed up in the process with little support to change the past failures & bring the organisation into a modern world.

A choice between Peter/AEC12OA & ARYA & I would suggest the AEC12OA is perhaps a better option than exists presently. To stay as it is can only mean further deterioration & an eventual demise of the class.

The same can be said for the ARYA. Change is needed.. confuse

New Ideas need to be embraced & things need to be tried. If Peter's vision doesn't work out then there is always an opportunity for others to step forward over time. I suppose that is the main reason I decided on a YES response. If it doesn't work there is always next year.. But I would be happy to give the AEC12OA an opportunity to succeed.

I am of the complete belief that for Radio Sailing to become more accesible to the masses that the system needs to be focussed on Associations & not manipulated into a One Class system as is happening with the IOM.

The day is coming when the IOM will be the only boat recognised in Australia as clubs are forced to take on the class or lose potential new members & a decline in older members as they move on.

When it comes to Forums they are Good & Bad.. But the first thing I would note is that even though certain people don't post & contribute they certainly are taking note of what is being said..

Things then get discussed by Email, Phone & at the Local Lake. Which I think is the right thing to do.. Yes even the Negative Press get a hearing & groups with any sense can make their own decisions.

So although there are only a few posters here, I would suggest that the message is getting out there & being discussed. Which is better than it being done in shadowy corners & behind everyones back.

So I must commend Peter for posting his vision publicly.. Not all I agree with, but time & application will convince me whether his vision can also work for many other classes that want to self-promote outside the strict ARYA system of procedures..

Harry I agree, any Class Specific event should be open to all owners of boats within the Class.. At least once anyway,maybe twice & from there encourage them to join the association by showing them what the benefits to them really are...

Simple to make a portion of an Entry Fee an Association Members Fee,, (providing it is minimal).. blankstare

Two Cents no longer Legal Currency.. biggrin I'll round you up to 5c....

Cheers

John

Viking · Veteran Member

-- Edited by Viking on Friday 30th of December 2011 04:53:41 PM

Gesst · Veteran Member

To anyone that is maybe caring to read this,

A great weight has fallen onto the EC12 class with Peter choosing to act as he done, I agree with him one hundred percent when he says the wants to drive the class forwards and upwards. I don't necessarily agree with the way in which he chosen to do it. I stand by my description of the AEC12OA as being somewhat autocratic and that is based purely on what I have read here. As a non member I am obviously out any information loop that may exist but when I see two people on this forum who are members asking what in my opinion amount to fairly simple and straight forward questions then I have to think that they too are not being told all the facts. I stand to be corrected on any of my statements but it appears to me that all the decisions up to now have been made by one person only and not in consultation with any other members of the OA. In his last post on this forum Peter mentioned that if you are in a position to lead then you had better BLOODY well LEAD, I tend to think that when you resent an OWNERS association you are there to guide and let the owners have some input into their association, not to make all decisions on your own and then present them as a 'fait accompli'.

It's all well and good to have an owners association in name but if there are people that are now back pedaling from a previously stated support of an OA then that needs to be addressed as a matter urgency with all priority. If the sole purpose of an OA is to wrest control of the class away from the ARYA and run it the same way the ARYA has been running it, then in my opinion nothing has been achieved.

I repeat some points that I had made in an earlier post. In an effort to stabilize the class and have world wide acceptance, Australia needs to run the same class rules as the US and NZ which apart from wording are in essence identical this would once and for all remove the differences that now seem to exist. For instance, why did Australia decide to go for a weight base rather than the accepted waterline length. The NZ rules make provision older hulls which is obviously a reference to hulls produced from differing moulds and there is no max or min weight other than that what is required to fulfill the min and max waterline length requirement.

The Morgan Black as has been pointed out is an informal and social setting to foster goodwill and friendly competition amongst rival countries and I believe should be open to one and all regardless of class affiliation, if by chance it does happen that the Morgan Black were to become a world title event and run under the jurisdiction of ISAF then yes, all competitors must be members of an affiliated club.

Harry's two cents worth .... including GST

Straw · Member

This will mean that only if the ARYA confirm that the Lakesedge mould is on file as a legitimate approved mould and is still under the ownership and control of the person or entity that was given accreditation by ARYA to build, then the OA will accept this.

1. If the AEC12OA is given control of the Class - will the AEC12OA give approval for boats to be produced from existing (ARYA approved) moulds?

Bob as I have already stated, the AEC12OA will accept any new boat built out of previously existing ARYA registered moulds and that are built by the accreditted builder/person who ARYA have on file as being associated with that mould officially and said boat complies with the class rules at that time. I cannot make it clearer than that.

2. What will be the registration procedure pertaining to para 1.?

The registration process will be exactly as it is now with the exception of the idea put up by Leigh Grove that suggested that the AEC12OA will keep a separate register of its own. I believe that Leigh's idea is a good one and we will likely adopt it. In other words the measurement process will continue to be policed by ARYA measurers for all new boats produced in this country. Purchasers should be warned against purchasing any dodgy thing on eBay or from overseas that they cannot vouch for its veracity.

3. If a person has an unregistered boat from an existing mould (vide para 1) is the owner able to have the boat resgister after the AEC12OA has taken control?

Yes provided that it can be proved that it was a boat produced from a previously recognized mould (previous registration cert or recognized internal builders' logo and also that the boat complies with the rule base that previously applied when she was constructed. The only additional requirement will be for all boats whether new or old to comply with the weight requirements which is now recognized as the central plank of the measurement protocol.

Bob, I wish to make it ubundantly clear that it is the case that with the ceding over of class control to AEC12OA fropm ARYA, we shall then occupy the role of policeman for the class in AUS. The ARYA will simply be the recipients of advice and information as it pertains to the EC12 class in AUS and they will simply acknowledge and comply with whatever they understand to be the rules etc as they are infomed by us from time to time. This will become even more the norm when anf if the class goes international as then even we in the AEC12OA will need to comply with international class rulings as they occur similarly to the protocols adherred to be the other international classes.

Whenever there is controvery or confusion over any matter arising in connection with an EC12 boat or matter, we in the OA will be the final arbiter and ARYA will have nothing to say about it subject to a higher ruling that perhaps will be provided by an international EC12 class authority.

-- Edited by Straw on Monday 12th of September 2011 02:21:21 PM